20 hornet

[kent]

I've just been reading about 20 satan in may's shooting sports made from 6 x 47 swiss match later using 6.5 x 47 L using .22br then 20br FL dies built on a 308 bolt face so plenty of donors out there. could be different enough without breaking the bank

 

 

Yes, were is the point were different just becomes unusual rather than practical? One thing I want to know about anything before I buy it is why? What does it achieve over the easy available? It's different to get two guys to try and pull start a reluctant car - yet is it any better than a push start?

 

I think about 75% of cartridges in use today bring little to the table over the 25% ( I need only exclude high level competition out of that)

[gbal]

I've just been reading about 20 satan in may's shooting sports made from 6 x 47 swiss match later using 6.5 x 47 L using .22br then 20br FL dies built on a 308 bolt face so plenty of donors out there. could be different enough without breaking the bank

I've just been reading about 20 satan in may's shooting sports made from 6 x 47 swiss match later using 6.5 x 47 L using .22br then 20br FL dies built on a 308 bolt face so plenty of donors out there. could be different enough without breaking the bank

 

I've lent my copy of Bruce,s book,and the May SS to a friend.

Is that the one where the relative simplicity of forming the 20BR is improved by nineteen operations,to produce a 20 BR clone ?

Or is that another one?B himself does acknowledge the challenge,without claiming any fantastic ballistic superiority ,and why not,after all!

It's generally better seen as a hobby,than any serious research for a Nobel prize (paradoxical though that might seem !)

 

Gbal

 

 

 

[sonic]

The way it reads is as a three or four step depending on 6 or 6.5 as starting case.

Why wildcat well there are a lot of factory rounds started that way 243 anyone.

 

Why have a Jag Rolls etc when a micra will do? because you can.

 

We already have a choice of calibre that will do the job from rat to cape buff.

 

Some people enjoy wild catting as a hobby some just want something they can buy off the shelf anywhere and shoot.

[kent]

The way it reads is as a three or four step depending on 6 or 6.5 as starting case.

Why wildcat well there are a lot of factory rounds started that way 243 anyone.

 

Why have a Jag Rolls etc when a micra will do? because you can.

 

We already have a choice of calibre that will do the job from rat to cape buff.

 

Some people enjoy wild catting as a hobby some just want something they can buy off the shelf anywhere and shoot.

 

I am defiantly in the latter group as regards cartridges personally, anything different makes things complicated in the UK. Stressing about my brass or when and were I am going to get some more hard to obtain S5 bullets is too much for a simple guy like me with just a 600 allowance. Good wildcats get adopted fairly quick into mainstream- if they are worthwhile! wait another ten years after that and you might find the components in your local shop. A pretty worthwhile cartridge of recent times is the .20 ruger, yet one of the biggest dealers in the NW has sold just two ( both like it) but how likely is it the shop will continue to get .20 food into stock sure there are always the big stockists but that's not much good unless you meet at shows or travel a long way

[gbal]

I am defiantly in the latter group as regards cartridges personally, anything different makes things complicated in the UK. Stressing about my brass or when and were I am going to get some more hard to obtain S5 bullets is too much for a simple guy like me with just a 600 allowance. Good wildcats get adopted fairly quick into mainstream- if they are worthwhile! wait another ten years after that and you might find the components in your local shop. A pretty worthwhile cartridge of recent times is the .20 ruger, yet one of the biggest dealers in the NW has sold just two ( both like it) but how likely is it the shop will continue to get .20 food into stock sure there are always the big stockists but that's not much good unless you meet at shows or travel a long way

 

Yep,makes sense.

For most potential users of the 204,the 22/250 will be equivalent,and the lighter 224 bullets are now readily available,unlike the old 55g days.Some will want the rather slight extra velocity,and a few of those may actually be able to use it.The same is true for the enhanced bullet envelope for the 243,and so on,and it will do even more,limited more by guidelines than merit per se.

Some of us of course may not have ten years to wait,or at least can't choose that option,but it does not constitute 'good reason to possess'

Still it is probably better to have choice,in moderation or even excess for the aficionados.

 

Gbal

 

 

 

 

[minkstone]

Pork chop, some outstanding Hornets for sale on Guntrader.

 

Regards.

[sonic]

I like the idea of some of the wildcats. I enjoy reloading but the biggest drawback for me is cost. The cheapest way I suppose would be a rebarrel of a second hand rifle but I can't see it costing under a grand. A custom reamer would add to that. I'd rather spend the money on ammo for my .243

But I do like reading about things like 20 satan maybe one day I can buy one off the shelf. I won't discourage someone else from trying to come up with the next big thing.

I suppose it's a bit like making your own flies for fishing yes you can buy them (some look better than mine) but there is more satisfaction when you get that 500 yd crow tiny group etc.

[kent]

I like the idea of some of the wildcats. I enjoy reloading but the biggest drawback for me is cost. The cheapest way I suppose would be a rebarrel of a second hand rifle but I can't see it costing under a grand. A custom reamer would add to that. I'd rather spend the money on ammo for my .243

But I do like reading about things like 20 satan maybe one day I can buy one off the shelf. I won't discourage someone else from trying to come up with the next big thing.

I suppose it's a bit like making your own flies for fishing yes you can buy them (some look better than mine) but there is more satisfaction when you get that 500 yd crow tiny group etc.

case in point the .243 win with the appropriate bullet will shoot inside most things and feeds exceptionally well from a std magazine. Then again as soon as the parent case was launched people were necking it down to 6mm so it was always going to be adopted being at home shooting long range vermin and non dangerous game up to and including Red deer in size sealed that one. Had a look at the alternatives recently for UK use 6mm and they just don't stack up that well in the UK other than being "different"

[gbal]

case in point the .243 win with the appropriate bullet will shoot inside most things and feeds exceptionally well from a std magazine. Then again as soon as the parent case was launched people were necking it down to 6mm so it was always going to be adopted being at home shooting long range vermin and non dangerous game up to and including Red deer in size sealed that one. Had a look at the alternatives recently for UK use 6mm and they just don't stack up that well in the UK other than being "different"

 

Agree all this on 243s history and marketing.To link to wildcatting,I lusted after a 22Middlestead (243 necked to 224) for years way back in the day-rare beasts indeed here.

But the introduction of 58 g 243 bullets pretty much solved that.Shame the 115g needs a fast twist barrel,but we can' t bend the laws of physics,just by widening the choice of bullet weight in a calibre.

Gbal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alycidon]

Small case 20 cal then for me it would have to be a Vartarg,

 

I do run a 17 Hornet and I cant see much difference between a 20 Hornet and a 22 Hornet at the ranges this case should be used to.

 

A

[pork chop]

gone for the 22 hornet in the end just seemed less fuss,just preped 100 cases think ive found the right gun still no ticket hoping its back next weekout of interest how do you form you 17 hornet brass

[bbrc]

Steve kershaw has a 20 hornet reamer and I believe a source for dies

[kent]

gone for the 22 hornet in the end just seemed less fuss,just preped 100 cases think ive found the right gun still no ticket hoping its back next weekout of interest how do you form you 17 hornet brass

if it were me I should form it by shooting the factory stuff initially, that's the big plus over the .17AI IMO. You are better off not over working those thin cases

[terryh]

Gents

 

If you're looking at the 20 hornet then the 19 calhoon's pretty close for reference performance: http://www.jamescalhoon.com/

 

 

Personally I would have thought a 20 would have been better than the '17 hornet' chosen as the new 'do-it-all-cartridge-you-can't-live'-without'.

 

Terry

[pork chop]

hi buddy i got a 22 hornet in the end.like you i thought the 20 hornet would have the edge on the 17 for terminal performance and maybe less prone to carbon build up.i was at steve kershaws last night having the hornet barrel chopped and he is waiting for a 20 hornet reamer to turn up then hes putting one together.going to run the 22 for a year then i will have a think about it

[kent]

'do-it-all-cartridge-you-can't-live'-without'.

Yeah Terry, I like that statement! folk have been trying to improve on the original for 83 yrs. non have bettered or replaced it in the buyers eyes (longer still if you think of the .22 WCF the hornet was born from). To better the .22 hornet you maybe need to go .222 rem upwards, then you loose the whole darn point of the thing. Its simply all about killing quarry from say 2-3 lb up to about 40 lb at a maximum range of 200 yds leaving it all fit for skins and / or food, without any overkill. Crazy advertisers run the .17 it against a .223, it might have a similar trajectory but it aint got the killing authority of the bigger gun neither can it match its windages or bullet range

[pork chop]

finaly got the chance to shoot my new toy and very happy so far.shot some factory 46 gr winchesters and 35 gr vmax both shot around 3/4" at 100 yrd.some loading will improve that sat waiting for a fox now be nice to bag one on its first outing

[gbal]

'do-it-all-cartridge-you-can't-live'-without'.Yeah Terry, I like that statement! folk have been trying to improve on the original for 83 yrs. non have bettered or replaced it in the buyers eyes (longer still if you think of the .22 WCF the hornet was born from). To better the .22 hornet you maybe need to go .222 rem upwards, then you loose the whole darn point of the thing. Its simply all about killing quarry from say 2-3 lb up to about 40 lb at a maximum range of 200 yds leaving it all fit for skins and / or food, without any overkill. Crazy advertisers run the .17 it against a .223, it might have a similar trajectory but it aint got the killing authority of the bigger gun neither can it match its windages or bullet range

Essentially agree,as this clearly states the case for the Hornet in it's legitimate if limited niche.If you must have a little more,then the 218 Bee will oblige,but they are a rare insect in the UK !

The 222/223 and so on are in a rather different league,and any attempt to link the H,I7 H etc to them is,as you say,advertising hype,the overall performance is just not very close.One might argue whether the more potent 224s are one rung or two (22/250 and swift,and 22BR eg)above on the ballistic ladder,but they are certainly not on the same rung! Just as the 6mms are above all the 224s,and so on.Not necessarily better for all applications,but certainly different and not interchangeable,upwards especially! Much mischief arises from most attempts to blur this basic truth.

Gbal

[sheldon cooper]

How about the .221 fire ball. Never heard of one in the uk but seems popular in the states.

[gbal]

How about the .221 fire ball. Never heard of one in the uk but seems popular in the states.

Yes,it's a short(by .3") 222 rem,(1963,initially for the XP 100 pistol,virtually unknown here).(50g@2995fps;40g@3200 fps,in commercial loadings- a very nice little cartridge,superior to the H in almost every way,and is now available in some light rifles.Should be more popular,though there has been a bit more interest even here in the last ten years.

 

Gbal

[pork chop]

How about the .221 fire ball. Never heard of one in the uk but seems popular in the states.

that one crossed my mind as did the 17 fireball but getting brass put me off,happy with the 22 hornet i forgot what a great little round it is .bagged my first fox with it last evening and missed a very straight forward fox about five minutes later and got one this morning too

[sheldon cooper]

that one crossed my mind as did the 17 fireball but getting brass put me off,happy with the 22 hornet i forgot what a great little round it is .bagged my first fox with it last evening and missed a very straight forward fox about five minutes later and got one this morning too

It seems that nosler are now making .221 brass. there are loads of bullets to choose form. I am after a fox / vermin gun ( have been for ages) but been told no to larger rounds like .222/223. But have been told that a hornet would be ok. If rifle where available in .221 fire ball it may be the perfect calibre if I was given the nod by plod.

[sheldon cooper]

Just had a quick look. There was a brand new cz American .221 fireball sold on gunstar. Not sure when. For £850 so they must be available in the uk. Any one used one??

[kent]

It seems that nosler are now making .221 brass. there are loads of bullets to choose form. I am after a fox / vermin gun ( have been for ages) but been told no to larger rounds like .222/223. But have been told that a hornet would be ok. If rifle where available in .221 fire ball it may be the perfect calibre if I was given the nod by plod.

You wont go wrong with a more common .22 hornet and it will be far easier to find componants for. Mine zeroed at 130 is point and shoot on a bunnies head 30-160 yards, 2 moa low at 200. This is using 12.2 grains of powder and a 45 grain sierra bullet. The gun itself with a good T12 scout moderator is actually less disturbing than a HMR with a SAK ( it will totally replace a HMR and do so much more besides).

Energy wise it produces more punch than a .22 WMR muzzle energy out at 160 yds and I have yet to junk any rabbit (it tends to make a mess of the head and not even effect the shoulders) Hare (October onwards for me) can be shot in the head, neck or chest. Foxes well its got the grunt to do more but placement needs to be decent so as we are dealing with 5 moa of wind at 200 FV 10mph at 200 I call it a day at that in the day and shorter at night. Inherently it is very accurate mine rarely slips out of sub MOA at 200 but there are a few things different in loading for it.

£14 a box of 100 bullets, brass exceeds 10 re-loadings with LIlGun powder and 6-700 re-loads per 1 lb tub!

[gbal]

It seems that nosler are now making .221 brass. there are loads of bullets to choose form. I am after a fox / vermin gun ( have been for ages) but been told no to larger rounds like .222/223. But have been told that a hornet would be ok. If rifle where available in .221 fire ball it may be the perfect calibre if I was given the nod by plod.

Yes,I'd agree-do check with your FLO.The Fireball is intrinsically way more accurate than Hornets,which can be quite variable,and the Fireball will do everything a hornet of any disposition can do and a fair bit more.

It's a 224 so no issues with bullets,usual powders and primers-brass is perhaps not quite so available,but it will be a very long time before you need to replace any,and it is available.It's an excellent cartridge,not much behind it's parent 222-with all the 222's many virtues.It will burn a bit more powder than say a Hornet,but you do get very much bettter performance ,and would have to shoot an awful lot,or be very poor to see that as much of a reason.I have owned and shot hornets,but they are too variable,and are simply completely outclassed by the Fireball,with it's impeccable heritage,rather than a black powder carryover.Sorry to it's fans,but even in it's day (1930s) most authorities attribute it's success to an almost complete lack of competition,though a good Hornet-that's a good Hornet,not any old Hornet-is still a nice little 150/175 yard cartridge for small critters,but no way a bettter performer,on average.Unless you have special needs (I mean an extra decibel less moderated,for example,or only one can of powder),it's time to seriously consider the improvements since 1930,and the Fireball is a top contender.I simply can't think of any shot that a Hornet is capable of that could not be better achieved with the Fireball.

For fox it's clearly superior,on any criterion worth mentioning-look at energy -your FLO might agree to the logic of that..Admittedly,there are limited rifle choices,but they tend to be good choices,and you only need one.

Gbal