butch's v tetra copper solvent

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

just done a test between butch's and tetra

 

two old 2pence coins were used and an even amount of each appllied simultaneously

 

tetra was the first to turn the coin shiny in like 2-3 seconds without agitating

 

left for 5 mins but butch's still hadn't reach the shine that the tetra achieved after only seconds

 

now a rub test on each with the same sort of cloth and on the same coins with the solvent that had been left on them

 

butch's failed to come up any cleaner where as the spreading of tetra from rubbing it made the unaffected area's instantly turned shiny

 

 

 

varmartin and I did a similar test between sweets copper solvent and tetra

 

sweets won in the drop test but tetra won in the rub test

[Guest northernchris]

I did a similar thing with a .264 head,i found the same as you the Tetra was far quicker acting than Butchs and Hoppes benchrest.

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

its amazing that I am the only one that I know of round here that uses tetra

 

everyone I know use's sweets, butch's or something else and havn't tried tetra

 

chris do you still use tetra?

[Guest northernchris]

Yup,its good stuff I only started useing coz my local shop ran out of Butchs so got the Tetra and never swapped back.I just use a nylon brush,load it up with Tetra,run it up and down the bore a few times,leave for 20-30mins then just patch out.

[Alycidon]

Butchs is quite good on carbon, I use it to wet the bore and take the carbon out before getting down to the copper with a product called TM Solution, found in the Sinclair cataloge.

 

A

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

any one wanna buy a full as new 16 fl oz bottle of butch's????

 

only took two tiny droplets from it for the test

[Redfox]

Before flogging it you might want to read these comparative tests:- http://www.theriflestore.com/Pictures/Copp...pper%20Test.htm the rest of the info is here:- http://www.theriflestore.com/

 

Although I have to say that they and you are testing copper erosion in isloation.

The only proper way is to test in a real life situation where you have the steel of the barrel and the carbon fouling as well, the behaviour of the solvents will be different in that situation to just putting it on a piece of copper ( copper coins are not copper anyway but an alloy), it is more complicated than that. They do show bores that have been cleaned which is more convincing as an argument.

Redfox

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

tested butch's and tetra today at work on some flat stock copper thats real copper

 

put two spaced out drops of each solvent at either end and left for five minutes

 

the two extreme outer (one of each solvent) I wiped off and left the inner two another five minutes then wiped them off

 

tested the surface with the Ra meter to read surface erosion ( an Ra meter reads the surface of any material proving its smooth, we use it to test 316 stainless so I know when it has reached the mirror requirements for pharmaceutical use)

 

read the two tetra against the two butch's, as a note the two inner tests that were left for total of ten minutes I rubbed then a little to increase the solvents cleaning potential

 

tetra won for both tests

 

as and when I get other solvents to try I will test them and when I have a number of tests I will post the Ra's um from highest to lowest

[Redfox]

Silent have you read the link?

In 5 mins it would not have any meaningful effect.

There are many solutions which are very good at brightening the surface but dont actually dissolve the copper.

The best way is how they did it which is to leave it for a longer time and measure the copper loss, which by default has to have been dissolved.

I dont use either of the two you have, but in the series of tests they did, the tetra didnt remove anything. For sure the KG12 they are selling came out best, but the butches was well up there with the best ones.

Have you a set of scales that would weigh the difference? it would be interesting to see what results you got.

Redfox

[Guest varmartin]

Redfox..did you read silents post. ?

 

It clearly states that after five mins/ (ten mins and agitated) the surface was eroded more when using Tetra .!!

 

I use butches mainly and am pleased with the results.

 

I also have some KG12, and yes it erodes copper very well when you leave a bullet or a coin imersed in it.

 

In a real world test in my barrels I found it to be very difficult to work with as it is water based and only beads on a patch unlike a solvent based product that is absorbed by the patch.

 

Still got a nearly full bottle of KG12. !!

 

Martin

[ejg223]

Silent,

just use the diamond shite I sent ya,

it'll take carbon, copper and even the rifling outa the barrel

edi

[Redfox]

Martin, read the article in the link, tetra was included amongst 15 or 18 others and wasnt the worst, but the tests they did were fair and the results very beleivable.

In those the butches came out quite well.

As for KG12 beading up on your patch put a tiny drop of washing up liquid in a cup of warm water damp your patches and allow to dry or squeeze and use straight away, they will take the stuff then.

A lot of cloth has finishing agents used on it which cause what you say , particularly fabric softener is a damn niusance for it.

Redfox

[Guest varmartin]

Thats a good tip about the patches, and I will try it.

 

Just for reference the patches I use are all pre cut either from Sinclair or butches own.

 

I use the roll stuff,... is it 4x2 ? to clean my chambers.

 

Martin

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

ok the test I did was fair because the suface areas to be tested were measured in Ra um and then the area re tested afetr 5 and 10 mins and the surface had changed , become courser meaning erosion urrrrr?

 

an Ra meter can read very very very very very very smooth surfaces and cost around £6000.00

 

it is used to measure MIRROR FINISH surfaces and what most people would consider mirror is by an industry standard particulary pharma, that which promotes growth and vigour and a much smoother surface is required

 

I have polished well below 0.3 and when you see a piece of 316L polished way below Ra 0.3 its like a mega shiny mirror so the meter is able to detect any slight surface change

 

the only thing I can explain from the KG test is that tetra is a gel and the higher ranking or scoring solvents in thier tests were thin liquid

 

this means that when the bullets were dropped into the solutions the bul;let in the tetra was surounded by GEL and so because of this only the gel nearest or actually touching the bullet is able to do its work as because its more like solid than the others the affected gel was not able to be displaced by the other gel

 

where as in a thin liquid we see the affected, or weekend by its affect on the bullet, liquid gets displaced by non affected liquid

 

another way to explain it is when you drop a coin into say coke or vinegar and watch closely you can see a tiny tiny fizzing going on and a trailing discolouration going on

 

typicaly the solution that has done its 'bit' on the copper is discoloured and and rises away from the copper exposing it to new unafected solution

 

tetra being gel is not able to displace its affected solution but if you were to displace it manually say by means of a mop in the bore then it will do its job

[Redfox]

I see what your getting at silent, I think one of the others was a gel too but cant remember how well it did. We used to use surface roughness meters for ground and polished shafts etc and yes they are very expensive. The point of the tests is to see what amount of copper is removed from the bore and I'm sure somebody on here had access to a bore scope, if they had, the ideal would be to give a the Tetra and a couple of others a good go in a bore and see how clean it got them.

Ive tried a few including the Robla Solo Mil, which is like a kick in the nose when you take the lid off, I seem to remember it is 10-13% solution ammonia, but they say not to leave it more than 5 mins, so my bottle went and I only used it once

I like the idea of the water based KG12 or the Mpro7 but have yet to get hold of any, where do you get the tetra from? i would like to give it a go too.

Redfox

[silentsoulsleave308holes]

the sportsmans sell it and you'll be amazed how blue the stuff comes out

 

with others I have tried they come out a little blue but the tetra which is clear in the first place comes out like bluing gel the you blue your gun metal with

 

I have here some very early tetra in a glas bottle thats thin like butch's and when you drop a bullet into that because its thin liquid you can see the solvent that has done its job of fizzing away at the bullet, the dicoloured rises up and looks like a miniture smoking chimney whereas you dont see that happen with the gel but it still works when put down your bore, proberbly better than the thinner version

 

I have got the sportsman to post it to me before

 

I wonder wheather some chemical solvents are only good at eating the oxidized copper and not raw copper? thats why I used a Ra meter as this will read pitting in the surface caused by the chemical eating away at the raw copper as the surface will become more and more pitted/un even

[Redfox]

Yes the so called brighteners dont eat away the base copper just the oxide, imagine Auntie Janes face when she comes back from shopping and her favourite copper kettle is just a handle and some feet . Whereas we want the copper gone, I'll get a tube and give it a go as well as the KG12, I have an old 308 which even after a good cleaning you can see copper traces in the rifling and see if it will shift it, sadly no borescope here now, we used to have a complete system linked to both still and video cameras and could get down to3.5mm hole size. Just missed getting it for a song when the place closed down, but I got a few other goodies, so cant grumble.

Redfox