Finman Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Hi Chaps, Thought I’d share this experiment that I did today, after I read Ronin’s excellent report in the new cleaning system that he was trialling. For a long while now, I was bugged with how long it usually took me to take the carbon out of my barrels, and we discussed this in the thread with KG1 Carbon remover etc. Most agreed that the product itself is pretty good at shifting carbon and I do agree with this. So, today, after a shooting session testing some loads with my 6mmBR, I thought I’d run this experiment. I have attached a picture, showing the state of the patches I am talking about at the end of this posting. I shot 30 rounds from a clean barrel and, when I came back from the field, I soaked an oversized patch with carburator cleaner and passed it through the bore. The second oversized patch was dry and pushed it through the bore to pick up any residual carb cleaner and the debris the first one dislodged. After that, I soaked a smaller (appropriately sized) patch with KG1 and pushed it through. Allowed it to sit for 5 or so minutes, shortstroked the bore with an used bronze brush, and then pushed a patch soaked with KG3 (as per their instructions) and followed it up with another 3 of the same. These are the second line in the picture below. After that, I soaked another patch with KG1, pushed it through the bore (shortstroking it) and let it soak the bore for 10 or so minutes. Found a new 6mm bronze brush and passed it through the bore 4 times. I then followed the same procedure as above (KG3 soaked patches through till I get clear). This is the third line of patches in the picture. What is surprising from these two sequences, is that one would justifiably think that the gun was clear of carbon at the first sequence. Yet the second sequence proves that there was as much carbon yet to be removed if one persevered further. Following this, I soaked a patch with Hoppe’s no 9 (the sweet smelling stuff Panther likes- run out of KG12 and hoping to get my hands on some MPro7) and let it soak the bore for 10 minutes. Then, took the brush and passed it another 10 times through the bore. Following that, I pushed KG3 soaked patches through the bore till I got clear. I thought, in order to keep the same method for both cleaning sequences, I should do the same again. So, put another patch of Hoppe’s down the bore, but this time left it for 40 or so minutes, as I was getting earache about putting the damn Xmas lights up in the garden (don’t ask..). With that long period of the bore wet, I took the brush again and passed it through the bore another 10 times. Then I used KG3 soaked patches again till I got clear. At that stage, I thought enough is enough and pushed an oily patch, followed by two dry ones and put the gun away. As can be clearly seen from this cleaning sequence (by no means the best nor one that I recommend to anyone to follow- it is just what I do), we can see that in each step the carbon is more of an issue than anything else. Unless copper comes out black when Hoppe’s interacts with it. The gun wears a 23’ Border Barrel (1:9 twist) and has had 755 rounds through it from new. From all the barrels that I’ve got, this is the easiest to clean (!!!). I was wondering whether you have also got similar issues with carbon or you simply clean the gun once (as oppose to repeating the sequence) for each element (carbon and copper). And, to pre-empt a suggestion I don't thing that I am actually scrubbing the rifling away as I have had the gun for 2.5 years, and if anything it is more accurate now than it ever was. Plus, I do get clean patches if I repeat the same sequence for the third time. Looking forward to your thoughts on the matter Best wishes, Finman PS: I have nothing to gain by promoting any of the products above. PPS: I am not sure whether the picture is going to work, but i have not worked out the way on how to publish pictures within the text as some of you are able to do. Any help on this is much appreciated. PPPS: Thanks to Panther and WSM I think I have it cracked now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Finman, The photo link didnt work.... You can make an account w/ http://photobucket.com/ and upload your pics there...and then copy/paste the link onto the topic/reply form and go from there... Couple the guys use other photo sites...They 'll tell ya or ask who uses what. Insomnia can be a real bitch sometimes....I was researching some rifle drills and came across this... Very interesting read....... http://www.frfrogspad.com/cleaners.htm Theres pics too.The guy really did his homework. 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finman Posted December 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 Thanks for that Panther, I shall get onto my computer and set up an account and then repeat the message. Without the image it does not make much sense. best wishes, Finman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornishman Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 I hope this thread comes up with something definitive because I've used all products known to man and I'm still not sure which one works best. My current thinking (always provisional) is: *always use a good bore guide. This is much more important than which type of solvent you use. I use Mike Lucas guides (as recommended by 6mmBR.com) and I wouldn't like to use anything else - they're good. *I prefer to take my time and let the chemicals work using a brush only sparingly. *KG1 - yes, good on carbon. If you leave it in half an hour or so it also seems to take out copper. I think this is water-based and as such I am a bit reticent about using it on non-stainless barrels *Hoppes 9 - not the most aggressive but I think I'm right in saying that it's OK to leave in for extended periods (God, I hope so...). *Forrest Bore foam - excellent water-based cleaner that seems to work as well as anything else but gets in the action unless you're really, really careful. *Butch's Bore Shine - good stuff and safe to leave for an extended period. *Sweets - an ammonia cleaner and therefore not safe to leave in the barrel for more than 15 minutes. I use it to test to see if there's any copper still in there. *Kroil - just an oil. Good for cutting other cleaners. Benchrest shooters use it 50:50 with Shooters Choice as do some shooters who use moly bullets. *Shooters Choice - seem to work OK but I've not found any benefit over other cleaners. *Montana - just another cleaner. Seems good stuff but no better or worse than the others. Said to be safe for extended use. *Tetra products - seem OK but no better than anything else. I've found that custom barrels clean up well with very little or no copper. At the other extreme I have a 303 that takes literally days to soak and gets through maybe 50 patches before I'm happy it's clean. I'd love to know for sure what works on each type of barrel and at what point each gun is really clean. My Christmas list mentioned a borescope: Santa will probably not stretch to one of those this year but I think at some point it will just have to be done to put all doubt to rest. A couple of months ago there was an article in Precision Shooting that said none of the commercially available cleaners dissolved carbon but that water-based cleaners were better at getting underneath and lifting the layers. The gist was that carbon-removal needs some mechanical cleaners (i.e. a bronze brush). Cornishman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
325WSM Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 I still say the Outer's 'Foul Out' machine gets barrels cleaner than any other method. Often residues are entrapped by copper (or lead) fouling and when that is removed the rest of the residues simply wash away. I have cleaned barrels that others have cleaned with other methods/chemicals and always find additional copper in what sems to be a spotless barrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted December 17, 2007 Report Share Posted December 17, 2007 I find with my pac-nor barrel after 30 rounds all I do is 5 wet patches of montana extreme bore solvent then 5 dry to patch it out, 2 oily patches with Montana extreme bore conditioner and put her to bed, no brushing at all, I thought for ages that I must not have been getting it all out but on saturday I cleaned it my normal way 5 wet 5 dry the patches were coming out spotless I then put down some mpro 7 carbon cleaner and let it sit, it produced just a hint of black very light though and nothing to be concered about the rest of the patches were clean, then I tried the strongest stuff I have montana extreme 50 BMg I let this soak for a while but the patches come out spotless no sign of cooper, then after that I put some wipeout in and the accelarator and let it sit for 2 hours but again the patches came out clean from the start, it was all pointless as the bore was clean from the first 10 patches but its just a nice reassurance that I am cleaning it right, I am very lucky my bore cleans so bloddy easy, I was told pac-nor 3 groove bores clean easy but this is ridiculous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finman Posted December 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Hi Guys, thanks for all the contributions. Nevertheless, and to address Craig's points, the experiment I did above shows that it is easy to get what we call in research 'false negatives': whilst the patches would come out clean, repetition of the method and a bit more aggression with a brush, would prove that the carbon was still present in the bore. This was more of an issue than the copper. I still adhere to what Ronin (I think) also mentioned in the previous thread about KG1, that two steps should be followed (carbon removal followed by copper removal) and I cannot agree with your method Craig, as, from as much as I can understand it, uses only one solvent to address both elements (carbon and copper). Seeing the tests that Panther provided the link to, makes me a lot more confident in the use of the materials that I have chosen. It seems from both the KG industry test (which actually happened here in England by the chaps in the Riflestore) and the Fr.frog website link that KG is the best of the materials available todate. I would not worry about the fact that it is water based as it does not stay in the bore long enough before it gets scrubbed out (particularly with something like KG3 which has water displacing properties) and oily patches are what the cleaning procedure is finished with. Perhaps, Craig, it would be useful (more to prove me wrong so I don't have to worry any more about the validity of my testing) to repeat the barrel cleaning with a two step approach after you have already cleaned it with your method. If no black patches come out then I know it is my barrels and the whole thing can be put to rest. A factor that I found very much affects the ease of cleaning is the type of powder that one uses. In my .204 Ruger (Sako 75, Action I, Varmint) H335 is a hell of a lot dirtier than VihtN135 or RL10X. Anyway, I hope I managed to put my point across. Looking forward to your contributions, Best wishes, Finman, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Another point of interest... KG 12 was developed for the Military to clean the BIG guns. 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted December 18, 2007 Report Share Posted December 18, 2007 Finman, all I can say is that I am very confident that my bore is spotless 5 wet patches and 5 dry and she is clean, I am no chemist but I really think that any solvent strong enough to remove cooper should be up to removing carbon as well, surely in this day and age its possible someone has designed and made a product more than capable to do both, thousands of shooters use butches bore shine for both and seem happy, more and more people are turning to wipeout and it works, the test I done last saturady proved this too me, I cleaned it my normal way until I was happy it was clean, then I put down some of that m-pro carbon remover all I got was just a hint and I mean just a hint of black, then I tried m pro cooper remover, aboslutley nout, then montana extreme cooper killer again nothing, then wipeout which I reckon is the best cleaner provided you have the time to wait and again nothing, I cant do much more to prove my barrel is clean and my short quick method works. I was told a pac-nor 3 groove would be easily cleaned and I do believe it is. I dont think I will bother testing it all again I am happy with my method. Read this especially the part about fine hand lapped barrels ARTICLE it does mention a two step approach for a std factory barrel but for a custom its a lot less complicated, alot of the top shooters using custom barrels seem to keep to a very simple and quick cleaning regime and these guys shoot and clean more than I ever will + alot of them use borescopes to inspect there cleaning, if the simple method is good enough for them, then its more than good enough for me, my rifle still shoots sub .3" 5 shot groups after 200 rounds and hasnt went more than 30 rounds without a clean for the first 50 shots my bore was cleaned every 1 shot for 20 rounds and every 3 shots for 30 shots, in that run in period I learned alot about what my particular barrel likes and how it cleans. I will note that my wilson barrel was a bitch with carbon, it took alot more work, every barrel is different, I just got lucky with my pac-nor. I also read on Pete walkers site he reccomends 2 wet patches and let it sit if its still got a bit of fouling then 2 more patches again a simple method from a man who knows his stuff. I think its all too easy to get carried away with cleaning, i know for a while I was obsessed with it you should see the inventory of products I have, now I have settled on a method that I know works I wory far less, my main aim is to keep the amount of times I need to put a cleaning rod down my bore to a minuimum and have more fun shooting. I think it really is down to the individual barrel and how it cleans but also calibre chambering, obviously something like a .300 win mag using big long bullets and burning alot of powder is going to lay down much more cooper and carbon than my little tac20 burning 26g of powder with a tiny bullet that are only .204 in diameter and with an actual bearing surface of about .380 of an inch. I would never say someone elses method does not work or isnt "right" we are all different and our barrels are all different and our ideas and goals are all different, we are all quite capable of deciding what works best for us and at the end of the day if the rifles shooting well the method is correct no matter how the shooter has gone about cleaning it. If your rifle is accurate then your cleaning method must be "right" Finman, all I know is my rifle is very accurate and even though my cleaning method is very different to yours it is also "right", there are plenty of "right" cleaning methods out there and they are all different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Clean mine 2x a year...wether they need it or not. Sometimes more. Depends on how itchy the finger gets. 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finman Posted December 19, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Craig, I seem to have touched a raw nerve, whilst this was never my intention. If that is the case, let me apologise. As I stated in my initial posting, this is not a 'mine is bigger than yours' statement. It is a simple test that was prompted by my curiosity after seeing Ronin's method, and given the opportunity to test it in a lapped custom Border Barrel, which indeed is much easier to clean than the rest of the barrels I have. This barrel was broken in with 100 shots and is now in its 3rd year, having shot 755 rounds (no load was more than 33gn of powder). The other barrels are a lot more difficult to clean. I have met people whose rifle was never cleaned nor had any breaking in procedure done to it, yet they claim it is shooting great and they are convinced cleaning is a waste of time. I would love nothing more than never having to clean a rifle ever again, as I enjoy shooting much more than cleaning (ask my wife!). Yet, I feel that, as it seems usual with shooters, we have been sold snake oil time and again. Most of us have more bottles of 'magic elixir' in our gun rooms than a pharmacist and I am sure half of the membership of this forum will jump on me and say their method is better than mine (which will probably be the truth). Still, our barrels do get shot out and pitted sooner than we would like and the magic level of accuracy we all strive for, may be only present for a very short period of the barrel's life. Nevertheless, foxes, crows, deer and all sorts of critters die with alarming regularity and at ranges which attest to levels of accuracy over and above the ordinary. If half the stuff we read were true, most of the guns currently in circulation should not be able to hit the barn wall from the inside. One final comment: I don't like ammonia based solvents as I believe their capacity for errosion of the bore is much greater than those which are water based, therefore I don't use them. Hence my quest to find an alternative to the stuff that you quote as your favorite, which I am sure they do a great job. I am however almost phobic of leaving anything of such potency for more than 3 minutes in the bore, let alone 24 hours. But this is my problem. Sharing such information and musings is, at least I believe, the purpose of forums such as this. People's opinion may not always be right but it is their right to express it and, amongst all the sand there may be a nugget of gold from which some may benefit. It was in this spirit that my posting was put out to the membership. Best wishes, Finman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redfox Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Finman I suggest politely that you may have misunderstood Craigyboy, I see nothing critical of you in his summary, much the opposite you made him think and check his own methods as well. The english language as with many others, has peculiarities and nuances that we born into it take for granted and dont always think that people used to another "first language" may misunderstand or misinterpret. So no offence taken at all with your article, it does as I said make us think and question whether our method is as effective as we think. I tend to agree on the ammonia and never use them now and certainly wouldnt leave in the bore for more than a few minutes, It doesnt so much erode the steel as etches the surface and can cause rusting unless oil is applied quickly. I use Hoppes benchrest no 9 which can be left in overnight and with gentle agitation by bronze brush seems to remove the carbon. I am very interested in the Mpro7 as it seems to combine safe cleaning with effectiveness and look forward to trying it. I also use the Forrest foam which is water based and pretty safe but horribly expensive here in the UK. Incidentally whilst on the metallurgical subjects, the price of metal continues to go through the roof, so buy your favourite cases and bullets quickly as they are talking of up to 20% increase in prices in the new year. Happy Christmas Redfox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Finman, you didnt touch a raw nerve, I did not intend for my rebuttal to come across this way, I was just trying to convey how I believe my method works for me, I am not saying my method is "right" just thats its "right" for me. I know what you mean about the bottles of 'magic elixir' I have a serious amount of it, alot of it is crap too, everything that hits the market is the "next big thing" and I am usually suckered into buying it. Good luck on your quest for cleaning perfection finman (I suspect that if you really wanted to you could keep looking forever and never find "perfection".) Right now, I am off to the gunshop for a new 12 bore O/U for christmas shooting and then off lamping tonight, hopefully I will have a fox or 2 to report on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornishman Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Some different opinions here and I have to say I'm with Finman on this one. My experience (so far that is. Tomorrow I might find out something different but today this is how it appears to be) says that you can go quite some time with carbon building up and apparently not affecting accuracy. And then accuracy goes out the window and you wonder how things got so bad so quick. Remember, benchrest shooters are very aggressive in their cleaning (lots of brushing) and there's a reason for that - you've got to stay on top of the fouling before it bakes ultra-hard. Stuff I've read says that carbon is not soluble in any of the current cleaners. At least not when it's been baked on at very high temperature and pressure. It's a bit like our oven at home when my wife's been cooking but lots worse - much higher temperatures and sky high pressure. After it's built up it's going to be super-hard and very difficult to remove. Tests with patches won't show any carbon because the solvent does dissolve it. So it builds up in layers with copper as well. The only way to deal with this is with a phosphor bronze brush (in my opinion). I had a Wilson barrel on a rifle a few years ago and it was very accurate. I think I'm right in saying that Wilson don't lap their barrels. This keeps the price down but means they take longer to run in. Pac-Nor are button-rifled and very smooth. I have a Pac-Nor Supermatch on my Sako 222 and although it cleans easily a brush will still get carbon out of it. One of my hypotheses is that cut-rifled barrels (Kreiger, Border) are not as smooth internally but have longtitudinal striations in the grooves that collect fouling but as it's all in the bottom of these lengthways grooves it does not harm accuracy. If you put a patch down the muzzle a quarter of an inch, shine a light down the bore and examine it with a jeweller's loup you can often see fouling in a barrel you thought was clean. So far I've found that the cut-rifled barrels will shoot well even when they're dirty. Just ideas at this stage but when Santa gets me the Hawkeye borescope I'll know for sure. Cornishman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
325WSM Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 Do remember the bullet passes down the barrel first leaving a copper deposit before any waste from burnt powder can be deposited. Remove the copper and the rest falls away as well. I still say that Outers Foul Out will remove some copper and of course other deposits contained between the layers of copper from anyones barrel cleaned by any other method. I have bet a tenner with at least 12 folk over the years who obviously use different chemicals and other materials and every time I have kept my money. The best part is being able to see the physical evidence of the copper removed from what is believed to be a clean barrel. I must say I haven't tried comparing some of the latest chemicals on the market only available in the last 12-15 months as advertised in the US magazines but I am happy my method gives me the cleanest barrel I can get - easily and without bore damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted December 19, 2007 Report Share Posted December 19, 2007 I find with my pac-nor barrel after 30 rounds all I do is 5 wet patches of montana extreme bore solvent then 5 dry to patch it out, 2 oily patches with Montana extreme bore conditioner and put her to bed, no brushing at all, I thought for ages that I must not have been getting it all out but on saturday I cleaned it my normal way 5 wet 5 dry the patches were coming out spotless I then put down some mpro 7 carbon cleaner and let it sit, it produced just a hint of black very light though and nothing to be concered about the rest of the patches were clean, then I tried the strongest stuff I have montana extreme 50 BMg I let this soak for a while but the patches come out spotless no sign of cooper, then after that I put some wipeout in and the accelarator and let it sit for 2 hours but again the patches came out clean from the start, it was all pointless as the bore was clean from the first 10 patches but its just a nice reassurance that I am cleaning it right, I am very lucky my bore cleans so bloddy easy, I was told pac-nor 3 groove bores clean easy but this is ridiculous! I also find that Montana pretty good stuff, better than Butchs Bore shine, not as good as Wipe Out but a lot less messy. tend to use Butchs to wet the bore and get the initial crud out, then in with Montana and let it sit 20 mins or so then patch out and oil bore with Butchs Gun Oil. A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finman Posted December 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Hi Chaps. thanks for all the contributions, I am glad to see that there is also similar inquisitiveness as to the issues surrounding carbon like the ones I have had. I have to say, that after Panther's contributions (including the link to the Fr. Frog website), I shall stick to the KG12 stuff. Happily I managed to find a bottle of KG12 that I had squirelled away somewhere in the back of my shooting box, so copper sorted as well. I have the offer to use some of the MPro7 products so I will indeed give them a go, but I am not holding my hopes up. A very special day today: my brother is visiting from Greece and we went out stalking (the first ever time for him, the second for me) and we managed to get a nice, tender young fallow buck, with my 6.5x55 (which cleaned after 6 patches for carbon and one patch for Copper). I took one shot with a 120gn Sierra HP, CCIBR2, 50.5gr N160, seated 20thou off the lands home-load, at 80 yards after a two-hour stalk in woodland. This is my second ever deer. Hope you all are having a good time too! best wishes, Finman PS: Craig, good luck with the O/U!! I have always hankered for one, but my AL391 Ulrika serves all the pigeon shooting I do. Let us know what you got! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest varmartin Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Congrats on the Fallow Buck...You beat me by one.. If it was anything like my first buck you must still be buzzing from dropping it. What did your Brother think of it all ? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigyboy Posted December 20, 2007 Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Finman, congrats on the buck, I still havent shot my first deer, I need a rifle for them first and win the lottery! The closet stalking to me is looking around £1000 for a good red stag , i will stick to the foxes for now. Picked up a nice Bettensoli something or other havent shot it yet but I like how it feels, I mostly use my shotgun for roost shooting pigeons and crows I switched to an semi-auto a few years back but never got onto the feel of it just too long for me my hit rate suffered badly, also she spits cartridges out everywhere and alot of the farms here are sheep farms and I am terrified of the sheep eating one as I reckon they are more than capable the stupid buggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finman Posted December 20, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2007 Hi Martin, My brother usually hunts boar in Greece, with dogs and shotguns (which brings my mind to another posting about some of the folks here complaining about the state of affairs in England regarding firearms... In Greece, nothing with a rifled bore is allowed for hunting), and this type of hunting is much more aggessive and less connecting to the environment. Having the chance to walk in beautiful countryside, slowly, observing signs and taking it all in, trying to become almost the same as a deer in terms of their thinking, was a new experience and, indeed only a glimpse of it at that. We have been hunting together since we are able to remember ourselves and it was 3 years since we last had the chance to be out in the woods together with a gun. So, it was a special occasion for me to be able to share this experience with him, rather than trying to describe it. As for the buck, don't imagine any monsters: he dressed out at 35lb, he must have been a late fawn and, in my valued friend's Zaitsev, opinion we may have made this chap a favour as the winter would not have treated him nicely. Indeed however, I am buzzing from the experience. My first buck was in the same woods and he was also a yearling, or perhaps 2 year old deer, with antlers the size of half my thumb! Craig: you may just need a ticket for the ferry and some contacts in Carlisle/Dumfries area. If what I hear is correct there is ample opportunity for stalking at reasonable prices across the water. It may be that some of the folk here in the list will be able to offer information and contacts. best wishes, Finman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 308Panther Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 Congrats on the deer !! On barrels and fouling... http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barre...rel_fouling.htm Lengthy read...but informative. Infact the whole site is informative. 308Panther Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.jpg.0972b4e2bdf0b5a4109eb96f2b1b62ad.jpg)
(200x135).jpg.0fd0a94f065c6cb243fdff1b40e0819a.jpg)
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.