Loony Licensing

[Gunsgobang88]

Hi All,

 

As a gun and rifle maker I have a steady flow of customers through my workshop, all of us being shooters, a constant topic is the efficiency or otherwise of various Firearms Licensing Departments. The latest howler is Sussex Police saying a .22 rimfire is unsuitable for rabbits but recommending a .17 HMR instead! Apparently one of their staff has read something in a magazine and concluded that .22 BAD, .17 GOOD. Has anyone else encountered this with Sussex or any forces,

 

Cheers

Alan

[tony]

This so called member of staff needs takeing in hand by his/her Manager and get them sorted out ASAP .........PRICELESS.

[TonyH]

Hi All,

 

... Has anyone else encountered this with Sussex or any forces,

 

Cheers

Alan

 

Shooters have experienced arbitrary behaviour and irrational thinking by the police for decades. The other day we were reminded by Micky in Cheshire that the plods there try to restrict vermin control to .17 calibres and are obstructive toward those who seek (say) a rifle in one of the 20 calibres - completely baseless in terms of shooting safety or anything else. The problems are an inherent police (read ACPO) dislike of civilians owning guns, inadequate controls on arbitrary behaviour by the police, widespread ignorance about firearms by most police personnel, indifference from politicians & government who represent a 90% urban population, a disunited shooting community riven by factionalism and mutual distrust, compliant behaviour by shooters and the shooting trade.... Etc etc.

I've been interested in shooters' rights and police attitudes to licencing for quite a long time and the same observations, the same problems, go round and round, taking successive generations of shooters apparently by surprise. It'll carry on this way indefinitely until we lose all our guns one day, unless there's a fundamental shift in the political makeup of this country - i.e. people stop voting for authoritarian, collectivist political parties who don't give a stuff about shooting and other mostly rural pursuits - and/or people stop being so damned nice in the face of obstructive bureaucracy and start being seriously bloody minded.

Tony

[Gunsgobang88]

Shooters have experienced arbitrary behaviour and irrational thinking by the police for decades. The other day we were reminded by Micky in Cheshire that the plods there try to restrict vermin control to .17 calibres and are obstructive toward those who seek (say) a rifle in one of the 20 calibres - completely baseless in terms of shooting safety or anything else. The problems are an inherent police (read ACPO) dislike of civilians owning guns, inadequate controls on arbitrary behaviour by the police, widespread ignorance about firearms by most police personnel, indifference from politicians & government who represent a 90% urban population, a disunited shooting community riven by factionalism and mutual distrust, compliant behaviour by shooters and the shooting trade.... Etc etc.

I've been interested in shooters' rights and police attitudes to licencing for quite a long time and the same observations, the same problems, go round and round, taking successive generations of shooters apparently by surprise. It'll carry on this way indefinitely until we lose all our guns one day, unless there's a fundamental shift in the political makeup of this country - i.e. people stop voting for authoritarian, collectivist political parties who don't give a stuff about shooting and other mostly rural pursuits - and/or people stop being so damned nice in the face of obstructive bureaucracy and start being seriously bloody minded.

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

Prompt reply! From your post it is obvious that you like many of us are frustrated and sometimes baffled by the weird and wonderful approach taken by some Firearms Licensing staff. Most of us can describe incredible stories of foul ups, ignorance and sometimes outright hostility. Many of these episodes have passed into shooters' folklore and would be humourous were it not for the stress and inconvenience caused to decent members of the community who happen to be shooters. It appears to be a consensus among my contacts that the majority (not all) of Firearms Enquiry Officers are usually amenable but are hamstrung by the attitudes and policies of the head of their department or other headquarters staff. I have had many appalling encounters with a particular individual within my force area which ultimately ended up in court, this has cost me more in time, money, stress and damage to my health than I care to mention. The alternative would have been to throw in the towel and abandon the gun trade, other than the moral support of a few friends the only organisation that helped was the National Shooting Association, a small group that very few people have heard of. I mentioned the case of Sussex Police as a small example of the lunacy that we sometimes have to face, all we can do is to continue publicising the inadequacies of the current system and press for a better approach,

 

Best regards

Alan

[TonyH]

Hi Tony,

 

Prompt reply! From your post it is obvious that you like many of us are frustrated and sometimes baffled by the weird and wonderful approach taken by some Firearms Licensing staff............[snip]....... I mentioned the case of Sussex Police as a small example of the lunacy that we sometimes have to face, all we can do is to continue publicising the inadequacies of the current system and press for a better approach,

 

Best regards

Alan

Interesting, Alan. "The National Shooting Association"? Count me among those who've never heard of it! Something I didn't mention was the proliferation of shooters' organisations we have, their inadequacy, their often bitter internal politics, and their frequently supine, toadying attitude to authority. The (UK) NRA has behaved in this latter way in the past: historically, it represented what it thought to be the narrow sectionalist interests of traditional target shooters, which often meant doing down other types of shooting (the NRA decision way back to stick with archaic bolt-guns instead of the militarily universal semi-autos had profound knock-on effects e.g.) such as Practical, airgunners and rimfire target fans have often been viciously hostile toward centrefire; "game" shooters are often sniffy about, say, varmint hunting; and so on.

There aren't many shooters in the UK, far fewer proportionate to the general population compared with the USA and other countries; but even so, if shooters were united they could produce political pressure - which is all that counts. Their disunion will always limit their ability to have any influence at all; the bigger bodies like NRA and BASC will carry on with the attitude that they shouldn't ever make too much of a fuss, since if we show ourselves as reasonable, willing to compromise etc, the authorities will be nice to us. This pathetic fallacy has been revealed as garbage time after time: the Establishment simply regards shooting bodies with contempt, as impotent wusses who represent no sort of political challenge, so they can do whatever they like with us.

With the police, what it needs is for a body to get really nasty & underhand, and publicise effectively the shambolic inconsistency & incompetence of the police in administering firearms licencing, and the huge bureaucratic cost of their inefficiency. Does anyone routinely involve Public Auditors, for instance, highlighting the cost of stupid behaviour such as you mention and including the real-life helicopter stuff I described earlier?

Tony

(I want a Brit version of the USA NRA!)

[whoowhoop]

Alan,

 

Is this the link you need?

 

http://www.thenationalshootingassociation.org.uk/

 

I had thought you meant the Shooters Rights Association, but thought I would google it anyway.

 

We have been lucky in Beds, but now we are "twinned" with Herts, so apart from 1 FLO, Eddie, I think, it will all be down to strangers. This must mean longer delays, more mistakes made on issued FAC's etc.

And they want to put the price up?????

 

regards

 

Mark

[Gunsgobang88]

Alan,

 

Is this the link you need?

 

http://www.thenationalshootingassociation.org.uk/

 

I had thought you meant the Shooters Rights Association, but thought I would google it anyway.

 

We have been lucky in Beds, but now we are "twinned" with Herts, so apart from 1 FLO, Eddie, I think, it will all be down to strangers. This must mean longer delays, more mistakes made on issued FAC's etc.

And they want to put the price up?????

 

regards

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

 

Yes, thats the group. I was fortunate that the Chairman of my club (the OSM at Bisley) is a leading light in the NSA. Although they are a small group many of the members work in the legal and constitutional law area. Due to the legal and moral support they gave me I was able do prevail in what became an extremely unpleasant and vexatious matter over a period of 18 months. I am a firm supporter of the BASC (shows, young shots days etc.) but they could do no more than advise me, the NRA were as much use as a choclate fireguard. Their 'legal adviser' went to a scheduled meeting with the police, asked about my case and then swallowed everything they told him without question. He then 'phoned me, repeated what the police had claimed and washed his hands of the entire matter. After winning in court the judge directed the police to take steps within 24 hours to return my Dealers Licence and register, I finally received it 5 weeks later and after 2 interventions by my solicitor. The only benefit other than the ability to keep working was finding out who my friends were!

 

Best regards

Alan

[Marine1980]

Devon and Cornwall went through a stage were if you requested a .22 they would recommend you the .17hmr instead using ricochet! (sorry for the spelling) I don't think they fully understood the potential of the .17hmr at the time! This may have changed now!

 

Royal

[riddos204R]

Hi All,

 

As a gun and rifle maker I have a steady flow of customers through my workshop, all of us being shooters, a constant topic is the efficiency or otherwise of various Firearms Licensing Departments. The latest howler is Sussex Police saying a .22 rimfire is unsuitable for rabbits but recommending a .17 HMR instead! Apparently one of their staff has read something in a magazine and concluded that .22 BAD, .17 GOOD. Has anyone else encountered this with Sussex or any forces,

 

Cheers

Alan

 

Im under Sussex Police and they granted me a .17HMR, .22LR and a .204 Ruger all for vermin quite happily! The 22 has since gone though. Never heard of someone being turned down a .22 for vermin! Its the most widely owned calibre in the UK, bit ridiculous if Police forces start deciding its unsuitable now!