Grum87

Hi grum.

I've not any brass that's done that many firings.ive recently changed both calibres and my 6.5x47 is working it's way through 290 once fired lapua cases and my 284 has only fired 48 shots.i will certainly take you up on your generous offer when I get there.i tell you .what grum. I don't believe anything they say about you .regards Swaro

Hah, well, I may well be a cnut, however I believe if someone is willing to learn, then knowledge should be shared. You're obviously dubious about the benefits of annealing, however you show some curiosity, so I'm willing to go out on a limb and let you dip your toe without forking out a couple of hundred quid.

For me, I've noticed a variety of things with annealing.

Sizing brass becomes easier, with a better 'feel' - particularly through a collet die, not that I use one often, but for the calibre I do, it's night and day.

Seating bullets - you'll really feel the difference between well worked brass(I think 5-6 firings is a good number to show a big difference), and annealed brass.

Over the chrono - my ES reduced notably with the introduction of annealing to my brass prep regime. I also added wet tumbling to my regime at the same time, however, I'm not convinced clean brass alone would see the cuts in ES I saw.

Less variation in elevations as noted above.

How does it make a difference? My understanding of it is that it's all about consistent neck tension from case to case. Consistent neck tension should equate to lower ES(assuming a good regime with good components otherwise obviously), which at range will reduce variations.

You do a fair bit of long range play, so I'd expect you to be able to see a difference. Perhaps it's placebo - this element comes up time and time again with various things, maybe it helps from a mental point of view? If you think it'll do better, it may well do just because you're being positive about it all. I know from my experience with it all so far, that over the chrono my ES better than halved however, so I'd put my money on it making an actual quantifiable difference.

Shoot your brass, get it to 5 or 6 firings, send me some sized and decapped, I'll do my bit and send it back. Load it side by side, same day, same time - you'll feel the difference. Shoot it side by side, same day, same conditions - if you can run it over a chrono, that'd be even better. Decap and size it side by side, and feel the difference.

Go into it with an open mind - don't go in expecting either to do better. Experiments are best done 'blind' so your mind can't sub consciously sway the results either way, difficult in this situation. Don't go into it expecting the annealed stuff to be sh*te, and don't go into it expecting the annealed stuff to be the best ammo you've ever shot. Shoot enough of both side by side, groups at a distance where you can see the variation creep in, aswell as over the chrono, and I believe you'll see a difference.

Whether that difference has enough of a 'value' to justify a machine and another stage to your brass prep is another thing - but there are a shed load of folk doing it, and I'm a big believer there's no smoke without fire........

On another note, going beyond sarcasm and facepalming.....

Have you got any brass for a rifle you actively shoot thats at 5 or 6 firings Swaro?

If so, split the batch in half, and send me half of it with a fiver in the box for return postage.. I'll anneal it, and you can load it all as usual and see the difference for yourself. Groups and over the chrono if you can.

And lubo can give me commission for your machine when you order one

And don't forget new brass when yours gets old and brittle, and either stops holding nice groups, or just splits....

Another happy, non UKV customer. I set up Mike's for him today Lubo, and he's over the moon.

I will return at somepoint with data of side by side testing done on the same day for a fairer comparison re annealing or not annealing.

Im not convinced that spotlessly clean brass really helps, i do think clean primer pockets are a must though. However, clean brass is very aesthetically pleasing and inspires confidence, and sometimes I think that's half the battle.

You're right, it's not absolutely definitive that the annealing is the secret to low ES - because it isn't. But it certainly helps from what I've seen so far.

I do plan to do a side by side test of identical loads, with the only difference being, annealing, and no annealing after some of the brass has seen 3-4 firings - enough to justify annealing.

While not shot on the same day, so not exactly conclusive, I do have data shooting the same loads with non annealed, dirty brass, and today, annealed, spotless brass.

Todays shooting was actually a test aimed at CCI BR2 Primers Vs Federal 210m, after a previous chrono session showing the 210's to be, quite frankly crap.

Loads were as follows;

139gr Scenar, 2xFired Lapua brass - wet tumbled/annealed/trimmed/weight sorted, 41.8gr H4350 measured on a redding beam scale. The variable being the primers. BR2's Vs 201m's.

BR2's achieved;

Average 2782

ES 7.67

SD 3.0

High 2786

Low 2778

Fed210m's achieved;

Average 2778

ES 22.30

SD 8.60

High 2787

Low 2765

The BR2 wins, I'd suggest.

This test was brought about by a chronograph session where I was testing various loads and recording the results to populate my ballistic app with. On the day, I had a number of loads using the old KVB7 primers, and a number using Fed210m's. Sadly it was all a little apples and oranges, different bullets and powder charges - but the aim wasn't to compare any given component or load, just to record the data. One trend that did become clear was that the KVB7 consistently halved the ES seen in the 210M's. Every time.

But one of the loads, was identical to the above 139gr Scenar/Lapua brass/41.8gr H4350/Fed210m as above - with the same regime, minus the wet tumbling and annealing. The results(don't laugh!);

Average 2699

ES 61.55(!!!!)

SD 25.25

High 2733

Low 2672

Shockingly bad - albeit at 100 yards, it'd shoot half inch groups with ease.

It needs to be taken with a pinch of salt though - as today, and the day of my previous chronograph testing were different in conditions. Today was bright, little wind, and no clouds. The previous session was a little duller, with clouds coming and going - light levels varying a little. It certainly wouldn't help a chronograph that is known to be sensitive to lighting conditions.

I will run the annealed/not annealed with ammo made side by side on the bench, and shot side by side at the same time in the near future. Aswell as adding into the mix small primer brass(necked down palma brass).

No definitive conclusions can be made, but at a glance, I'm happy to say it makes a difference. In my opinion.

And the proof is in the pudding right? I'd say with ES into the single digits, it works....

You need to add a stage - case dying in my food dehydrator (otherwise used to make jerky) which does the job very well and leaves no watermarks.

I just bang them in an oven at 80-100 *c for half an hour, job's a good'n.

Nah, doesn't cut it for me, I tried that and found as they drop out the machine drops of water go everywhere, and leave watermarks on the brass.......OCD much....

When it comes to brass, nothing looks better than wet tumbled, freshly annealed brass though....

I suspect I'm going to end up doing the same, wet tumble, oven, anneal, trim, load.....

If nothing else, it makes ammunition that is so aesthetically pleasing. No one likes scabby looking ammo.

What a joy to use!

Mine has also landed. Unfortunately stuck in work til 8 or so.....

You're being more optimistic than me.....

I do have a mountain of .303 brass to get through, some of which I need for the weekend.....

Im heading south from work tomorrow afternoon, Warcop bound for Saturday morning, so I doubt I'll see it til Monday anyway.

I have a mountain of .260 brass formed from .243 that can be played with.

Mine is currently enjoying it's European tour courtesy of DPD ... ... ...

 

So far Dupnitsa (Bulgaria) -> Sofia (Bulgaria) -> Budapest (Hungary) -> Neufahrn (Germany).

 

I wonder where else it's going to stop off?

I guess you're is sitting next to mine then....... I bought a bottle of propane today in the vane hope I could get to play tonight....

I certainly will do, it's a bit of a hike though.

Was a shock to the system having to be up at 6 to get sorted and out the door to be at West Atholl on time, I'm used to getting up at 8, rolling out of bed and a 20 minute leisurely drive to Blair Adam.....

I don't think either of us were 'pure pish' by any means for a first go. Bit of a learning curve coming off TR targets onto the F Class stuff.

Was my first time at West Atholl today, nice range.

He was shooting F class for the first time, along with me. Neither of us set the heather alight, I think I out did him by a shot but that was about it. It was a 400-500-600 shoot.

Nice day out though, other than the midges. Wind was fairly calm, weather good.

The reviews here were very promising, and it has to beat doing it with a cordless drill......so I couldn't say no.

On another random note, I was squadded with one of your Club mates today at West Atholl DW. Jim K, nice chap.

Great news!

Excellent - looking forward to my turn.

Ditto!

Looks like I need to clear a space on the bench....siiiiiiiiiiiigh.

20 quid ball-head working well for me, no issues at all holding fairly(!) hefty rifle at any angle.....

Oops

Beautifully made bit of kit.

Just waiting on my Manfrotto and ballhead arriving today(amazon prime man is cutting it tight!), and we're off out for a play.