BlueBoy69

23 minutes ago, borbal said:

Hello BlueBoy69

Well, the data you put into the P-Max simulator was not the same as for QuickLOAD .....

The P-Max simulator required the measured case capacity behind the loaded bullet, in other words the "usable case capacity", which QL says is 42.7 grains of water. So the entered case capacity in P-Max should be 42.7 grains of water, not 48 as you entered. 

Try that and see what you get...

Thanks

Geoffrey 

 

 

I would suggest you set the input of 'Case Capacity', to 'Useable Case Capacity', as for QuickLOAD the two are completely separate data entries.

Plus measuring the volume occupied by the projectile is not going to be easy. Hence there's a whole area of QuickLOAD that calculates this for you.

1 hour ago, Dr. Strangelove said:

This link works for me - http://www.bbt.scot/ballistics/pressure.htm

BlueBoy - which way was the data you got off - too high or too low for velocity and pressure? 

Data input and result.

Reload Swiss' data (piezo gauge tested).

And the same data put into QuickLOAD.

Oh, when you print it! I rarely do that, just copy and paste the window.

But yes, that is weird?

If you put in other figures, even 101 yards, it seems to be fine?

Some form of bug I guess? You could try feeding it back to the developer, or reseller.

2 minutes ago, miki said:

How do you "set the output format" ? 

Unless you've just opened the program, first click on the 'QuickTARGET Table Setup' sub-window (I'm not sure what the correct term is?).

Then go to the menu bar at the top and click on 'Options'.

Pan down until you get to the field titled 'set units of output to'. This will then open up a sub-menu that allows you to set the output units you want, either Engish (Imperial) or Metric.

See image below.

38 minutes ago, Brillo said:

I use QT Unlimited and there are two dialogue boxes that differ from BlueBoy’s.

The table setup window allows input of range increments and maximum distance. The sight-in set up window allows input of gun data, target set up and projectile properties such as G7 data.

The output window is the same as above. The big difference with the target setup is you specify imperial or metric data, not both.

The QT Unlimited is more intuitive and it comes with the Quickload package.

QuickLOAD should come with both Quick Target and Quick Target Unlimited. I've only pasted in Quick Target results as that was what Jon B said he was using?

I can do the same with Quick Target Unlimited if he wants, but his problem was with Quick Target, so there wouldn't seem much point in doing so?

Also Quick Target Unlimited has a crazy amount of data you can pump in. Not as bad as some 6-DOF (degrees of freedom) models I've used as it's only 3-DOF, but still a lot of data. I'd advise someone just starting out to use Quick Target first, unless they are more technically minded.

I was able to access it, and tried a few examples, but it seems to be way off reference books and QuickLOAD.

I've tested this myself by setting the zero range as 100 yards, the max to 600 yards and the output format to imperial (see below).

Upon pressing the 'Apply & Calculate' button, the trajectory data table output data is in imperial units.

If I set the output format to metric, leaving the input as before, the same table comes out as metric.

So I guess my question is, are you setting the output format to correct units, or am I misunderstanding your problem?

On 4/13/2020 at 4:03 PM, meles meles said:

NOE mould, 311-247 FN

I ordered one like this for my 300 AAC Blackout.

NOE sent it to the incorrect address, even though I gave them the correct one in my order. I couldn't find out where it had been sent to, or frankly what postal service was involved, and when I did the UK's postal service had sent it back the US of A.

I have never been refunded and they will not reply to my emails about not receiving the item, even though the mistake was theirs.

As such I would not recommend buying anything from them, even though they have some really good moulds.

Update as of 16th June: The mould did finally arrive, but only after a lot of pestering by me. It seems the mould had been returned to the US after it has been sent to the wrong person and address (even though both were given correctly when ordered) here in the UK. Unfortunately the person/company had not bothered to let me know this, if I wanted a refund, or if I wanted the item to be resent. Frankly I think they've/he's a bit snowed under with work and its all a bit too much for them/him. For note, the moulds are top quality.

On 4/5/2020 at 10:06 AM, brown dog said:

Blinkingly, re-read this paragraph a couple of times...  can't get my head around a 'single base' powder with both NC and NG. I need more coffee.

It's because it's a single base powder that has NG impregnated (diffused) into it. It's not made as a double base propellant where the NG is used as the propellant's plasticiser and that also forms part of the energetic components. It's easier is I post an image of a propellant grain that has been impregnated with NG.

So the artificially yellow (gold) coloured areas are where the NG has diffused into the multi-perforated (7-perforation) single base grain. The RS propellants we can buy, as far as I am aware, only have one perforation (i.e. they are tubular).

But yes, ultimately, this makes it a 'type' of double-base propellant on par with an NG content that is similar to that of ball (or flattened ball) propellants.

I had to rewrite the entry on it in the book Jane's Infantry Weapons (now known as 'Jane's Weapons: Infantry', but it just doesn't have the same ring) when I worked for Jane's, so had a lot of data.

Well, you might like the replacement for the PSS... tada, the PSS-2!

It's a far more pokey version of the PSS, firing the SP-16 round. The SP-4 fired from a PSS has an MV of between 195-205 m/s (640-673 ft/s), the bullet weight 9.91-10.0 g (153-154 gr), its muzzle energy about 200 J (147 ft.lbf). The SP-16's MV is around 300 m/s (984 ft/s) with a similar weight projectile, so about 2.25 times the muzzle energy. The projectile has a sharp chisel-shaped nose to penetrate soft body armour and helmets.

Some images and videos below.

A PSS-2

SP-16 round. Note the mostly encapsulated primer to stop it from being blown out by the internal pressure when ejected.

PSS Vul being fired

PSS Vul internal operation (all in Russian, so mute it if it's annoying)

Lovely imagery, well videography. Much better than the stuff I used to use, but that was 20 odd years ago...

What frame rate and exposure were you using?

Some interesting ways to visualise the flow field. The first, referred to as 'fast frame differencing', is covered in the video below. Go to about 7:15 if you don't want to watch the whole thing.

It's that or use Schlieren, again covered in a video by the same person. I've used this method, but using the sun as the point source.

Anyway, I bet it's not a quite as one of these...

The Russian PSS (ПСС) Vul (Вул) semi-automatic silent pistol that fires the SP-4 (СП-4) captive piston round.

It's a very weird gun as the chamber and barrel are separate entities. The former recoils a short distance with slide and the pressurised case within it before it finally extracts the case.

Note that the SP-4 round itself is pretty complex so that it can seal the high pressure and temperature gas within after firing.

The PSS is almost totally silent, other than mechanical noise, due to the use of the SP-4 round.

36 minutes ago, Miseryguts said:

I stand corrected! My apologies for my loose tongue

No apology needed. It's just one of those myths you see all the time and I try my best to bust them.

It is possible that a DDT reaction, deflagration to detonation, may occur if the pressure gets high enough. I don't know offhand what pressure this occurs at, so would have to look it up.

For note, many single and double base propellant can be made to detonate as they are essentially denatured high explosives. It's a problem for ammo stored in vehicles if struct by very high-speed objects, such as shell, or amour (spall) fragments (these are not shrapnel, as that's another erroneous internet and media mistake to call frags shrapnel), or the jet from a shaped charge. The pressure from the impact of the frags or the jet tip can be high enough to detonate the propellant. As if it wasn't bad enough for them to burn within the confined space of a turret, or vehicle hull!

Anyway, enjoy your snooze 😴

21 minutes ago, Miseryguts said:

these fast pistol powders do not suffer from the detonation effect.

It's unlikely to be a detonation, this is one of those folkloric myths bandied around the internet. It's to do with pressure wave oscillations. A large empty case (or chamber) and a small charge of propellant can result in a destructive pressure wave forming.

Essentially the propellant starts to burn and a pressure wave travels from the burning propellant charge, say at the back of the case, to the front of the case or chamber. The wave strikes the front of the case/chamber/base of the projectile and reflects back towards the burning charge. If the reflection coincides with the peak of another pressure wave, the pressure is increased. This reflection/reinforcement can oscillation backwards and forwards until the pressure exceeds the strength of the gun, blowing it up.

The wave can, of course, oscillate up and down too, like in a small arms cartridge case with a small amount of powder running along the bottom of the case. In small arms cases, both the up and down, and the forwards and backwards likely occur.

Anyway, it's not detonation of the charge, the failure of the gun is due to excessive pressure caused by pressure oscillations. Pressure oscillations and differentials are the bane of big gun designers.

Look up the US Army Ballistics Laboratory paper (ARBRL-TR-02277) from 1990 titled 'Charge Design Considerations and Their Effect On Pressure Waves In Guns'. This is also in the AIAA book I have titled 'The Interior Ballistics of Guns' with the same paper in. That book's rather expensive now (link), so just go for the paper.

Neil

3 hours ago, cooter said:

Based on the above powder information it means that to use the same powder weight of N32C as could be used of Trail Boss the case will be only half full, and to get it down to sub sonic level (10 - 11 Grns) means it will be around the 50% fill level, which can mean an uneven burn, or using fillers.

N32C Tin Star seems fine with partial fills, and like many of Vihtavouri's propellants, it does not seem to be very position sensitive. Just peruse to Vihtavouri's cowboy action area, many start around 50% full.

I've used it in my 22 PPC (6.0 gr, 44.5% full), 300 AAC Blackout (4.8 gr, 44.2%), and 45-70 (10.5 gr, 40.9%). I use no fillers and the accuracy is good.

If you are concerned that the low fill may result in the potential for pressure oscillations (oft most likely incorrectly referred to as propellant detonations), it would be best to stick with Trail Boss until it runs out and then build-up loads that use a filler. Though using fillers with a suppressor is probably not a good idea though 😟

16 minutes ago, cooter said:

I recall reading that the powder volume density for N32C was slightly lower than Trail Boss, but there wasn't much in it.

Hi Cooter,

It's the heat of explosion (energy content) of N32C Tin Star that is very slightly lower than Trail Boss. So 3,040 kJ/kg for N32C and 3,070 kJ/kg for Trail Boss.

The volumetric density of N32C is higher (it weighs more per unit volume) than Trail Boss. The volumetric density of N32C is 0.459 g/cm³ and 0.310 cm³ for Trail Boss.

So you can roughly load weight-for-weight, but not volume-for-volume.

For example, a 308 case loaded to COAL of 2.800" with the aforementioned Hornady 220 gr RN and a full case of Trail Boss (14.49 gr), according to QuickLOAD's estimation, gives a pressure of 34,511 PSI and an MV of 1,319 ft/s from a 20" barrel.

If you load volume-for-volume, the same case filled with N32C weighs 21.45 gr and gives a pressure of 62,514 PSI and an MV of 1,627 ft/s. That pressure of over the maximum average pressure allowed for the cartridge, so very high!

If you load weight-for-weight, 14.49 gr of N32C gives a pressure of 35,639 PSI and an MV of 1,319 ft/s. So identical velocity, and only slightly higher pressure.

The pressure is different as the two grain types and hence their burning characteristics are very different, with N32C being a hollow tube and Trail Boss a thin washer. There are obviously lots of other minor differences, such as coating, deterrents, etc., etc., but their morphology is the primary one.

So, as long as you load weight-for-weight, and start off at the lowest recommended fill weight of a Trail Boss load, you should be fine most modern cartridges.

Neil

Borbal,

I'd not used it, or heard of it up to now, but might give it a test. It looks very similar to QuickLOAD, but unlike the latter, not a progressive update from a program that ran on pre-DOS computers. A quick search shows that various people have tried in and their feeling is generally favourable.

The website page is OK, but it is far too lacking in details, such as who is doing this, contact details, etc.. The first thing it makes me think of is a scam site for finding (and logging) people interested in target shooting, not good as a first impression.

https://grtools.de/

A further search brings up the programmer's GitHub page, so this seems to be the lead programmer.

https://github.com/DerMozartJBA

Anyway, if you don't fancy registering, but want to see how it works, try their YouTube video channel (first link below), or their reloading guide (second link).

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEdG4IMYRhSA4Tc09hUKN_A

https://www.docdroid.net/EgkOSZV/grt-manual-2019-10-22-en-pdf

Right, back to work as I couldn't focus earlier on the week so need to finish off a few munition entries... It's Russian tank gun-fire 125 mm HEAT projectiles at the moment, so 3BK14, 3BK14M, 3BK18 and 3BK18M (3БК14, 3БК14М, 3БК18 and 3БК18М in Cyrillic). Thankfully those two projectile families differ very little from each other, or from the earlier 3BK12/12M which I've done, so it shouldn't be too hard. Oh well, no rest for the wicked.

Neil

 

 

 

1

17 hours ago, simgre said:

I bought an RPA 7mm-08 with an Archer barrel nearly 17 years ago. I never load to the maximum, nor do I use double base powders. I know it's limitations and it's a solid 800m rifle giving comfortably sub-MOA five round groups. 

Its had nearly 5K through it so far. 

I'm sorry to say 'simgre', that RS40 contains both nitroglycerine (NG) and nitrocellulose (NC), so you are using a double based propellant. According to the propellant's MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet), it contains these energetic components; 82% NC and 12% NG. The other ingredients stabilisers, coatings, etc.. So RS40 has slightly less (4%) NG than the dreaded (on this forum) RS60. See images below.

RS40 is one of the extruded impregnated (EI) developed by Nitrochemie Wimmis and sold commercially by the entity known as Reload Swiss. You'd have to move to something else if you want to get away from NG-containing propellants.

For note, just because something contains only NC doesn't mean it isn't erosive. The flame temperature (not to be confused with the heat of explosion) is the primary erosive factor in guns. The flame temperature of NC and hence its erosivity is dependant on NC's degree of nitration. Not all NC is the same.

I have a mountain, well rather a lot, of data on gun erosion should anyone want some more information or recommendations of stuff to read.

For note, it seems I can't link to the right quote, or even a quote with this in? Too early in the morning. I blame CV19!!!

Just my two pennies worth, and I'm not saying this as I have one, but there's really not much different ballistically (in a bolt gun) between a 22 PPC in a suitable fast twist barrel, and the 224 Valkyrie. Obviously the latter has a case designed to feed better and slightly less than a grain extra capacity, but that's it. Also, when you fiddle with both in QuickLOAD, the max velocities are almost identical with the same bullet and powder, most likely due to the efficient shape of the PPC case. Oh, and that's not using an increased COAL for the .22 PPC USA?

Try this, it gives a rough estimate of the relative temperature sensitivity of Reload Swiss powders.

https://www.reload-swiss.com/en/reload_swiss/service_3/tipps_und_tricks_neu/temperaturkoeffizient/index.php

Only a small snapshot, but better than nothing.

Looking in my library, these European powder companies all list data for the 9.2×62: LOVEX; Norma; Reload Swiss; RWS; Vectan; and Vihtavuori.

You should be able to get them all bar RWS.

1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

doesn't the sodium bicarb just react with the citric acid ?

Doesn't seem to. Well, one of the Lemishine the ingredients is sodium carbonate (soda crystals), so sodium bicarbonate is pretty close, both are mildly alkaline.

Whatever the case, the cases come out shiny with no discolouration.

As you do, I rinse them with cold water, wipe them clean, then put them somewhere to dry. Either on the top of the radiators (winter) or in a fruit drier (summer). 

After getting a wet tumbler and thinking I can't be assed with trying to get hold of 'Lemishine', I just made up an analogue of it.

1/4 teaspoon of citric acid

1/4 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda)

1/4 teaspoon of washing up liquid

These are added to the warm water and cases in each drum of the wet tumbler.

3 minutes ago, Andrew said:

Thanks though. Got my first dose of feeling foolish for the day! 😀~Andrew

No problem Andrew.

I too read the text first and wondered where the Catch-22 was getting the info from? I then zoomed in on the image as spotted the designation and also noticed it mentioned in the later reloading data section.

It's worth having the Explosia's LOVEX designation as you can find more reloading data (link) and use QuickLOADs info if you are so inclined.

5 minutes ago, Andrew said:

They just weren't specific as to the exact designation by LOVEX.

Hmmm, says it on Page 26 and it's on the picture of the propellant in its tub?

15 hours ago, tench said:

have you tried it yourself? 

Not in the 223 Remington, as I don't own one, but I use it in my .22 PPC USA with H&N 55 grain copper-plated and plastic-coated bullets.

I don't use a full case as I'm not trying to emulate the .22 Hornet, I just made up a light accurate load for plinking that gives a bit more punch than the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire. This uses 6.5 grains of N32C for an MV of around 1,650 fps with the 55 grain H&N bullet. Going by QuickLOAD, 12 grains would give me around 2.340 fps. Personally, I'd not use this with the H&N bullet as the load is a pretty high-pressure one (48,000 PSI) and the bullet probably wouldn't like it. A proper jacketed bullet would be fine though.

You could also try Vihtavuori N110, as it's good for partial case fills and I've used it many cases for downloaded rounds. For the .223 with the H&N 55 grain bullet, they list 14-16 grains of N110. If you are going to be firing 40-45 grain Hornet bullets, you can go a bit higher, but this won't emulate the .22 Hornet, it will be far above it. If you do want to emulate it, then about 11.8 grains of N32C will get you around there according to QuickLOAD.