sam39 Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Good afternoon Stock and action question. I have a Howa 1500 223 with a walnut Howa sporting stock. The gun was 2nd hand, after a few early erratic groups I found the barrel was not free floating (could not get a strip of paper between the barrel and the wood totally tight) I got my gunsmith to remove some wood. Now the amount of float i get depends on the Torque on the pillar screws. I know it should not depend on the Torque setting! but after trying different Torque setting, running paper down the underside of the barrel and group size I have locktighted them in at a low 20lb finding better groups and more float (paper runs full length) vs 30,40 and 50lb. My question is do you chaps think a low setting of 20 could be an issue. Just wondered if this would have other effects being so far off the Howa recommendation which is 50 to 55? looking at other sites i think the range is 40 to 60? will it need that extra thread wound in to set things up correctly? For your information The rifle shoots 100 yard 3 shot groups consistently of just under an inch from a bench. But most groups have 2 touching or very close then a 3rd is off. Then sometimes it will shoot 3 touching ? I would love top get it to a reliable half inch, I think it can do it? or could the odd clover leaf be a fluke? Consistency is what i am after. I know this could be many things and is an elimination game but i am getting down to the action/stock thing or a barrel issue. JUST FOR YOUR INFO .I have shot mod on vs mod off, let others shoot it, trigger is done, tested 6 sorts of factory ammo and picked the 1 it likes best. regular cleaning routine have a 2nd target for fowling shot then shoot my 3 shot group. crown is perfect. Shoot on calm days off a bench with a rest or sand bags. You may think the group average is ok but its the consistency that is driving me nuts. clover leaf to 1.25 Any help would be much appropriated. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Hi Sam,,,,think what you are getting is typical factory ammo performance and its very probable that Howa would accept MOA pefomance from factory ammo as the "norm" given the "quality" of manufacture at this end of the market,,,,having said that don,t despair you may well step up to reloading your own at some point and in doing this I am pretty sure you will see the Howa quite capable of the 1/2 inch and holding it especially the heavier barrelled versions.,,,,I,ve had a mini action varmint 223 and now have the heavy varmint full size action,,,considering their relatively low cost both guns have returned stunning performance with homeloads and easily an inch or under at 200 yards with 69 TMK,s....no flyers. Your post was a lot about pillars,torque etc,,,,,,to be honest as long as your action bolts are pretty tight and you have barrel clearance that's about as much as you can do without doing a proper repillaring and bedding properly. I did go to the length of repillaring with much thicker pillars that actually contact where they should and bedded them in at the front and rear areas only,,,only half a job I know but huge improvement all the same ,,,,action fits really snug and barrel clearance constant. Talking about pillars it must be said that the factory fitted "pillars" are not pillars at all but just very poorly fitted sometimes loose guides for the stock bolts!!the torque that you are applying is doing no more than compressing your stock all over the place hence the different amounts of float you are seeing. The way forward,,,,,if you really want it to perform ,,,cry once more and get it professionally bedded,,,pal up with some one that can reload to a good standard and try that for comparison to factory offerings.In doing these two things actually shooting half inch groups consistently takes some doing ,,,,many many other things come into play ,,,,,,wish you luck,,,,,,,,,,O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Thank you very much for your points O. Your 2 Howas sound like they are doing you very nicely! This is a bit off topic but a question re your post. Presume a "mini action" is a shorter bolt travel and suited to the shorter centre fire rounds? and a normal action is a standard that can cope with all size of round? so if i was to end up getting another 223 at some point in the future would it be sensible to just look for a short action? (by the way I like the smaller frame Schultz & Larsen legacy 223) I used the word Pillars more as a reference to the screws rather than the gun being properly pillar bedded action bolts are nice and snug a 20lb and seem ok to me. Presume when you say huge improvement after new pillars and fitting front and back you got tighter and or more reliable groups Bedding and reloading 2 projects for 2017 Thanks Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Your welcome,,,the mini action is just that,,,a smaller overall action in many respects as compared to the normal "1500" action which has "short and long" action variants to suit different calibres.Theres lots on the "mini" action on the web,,,,,,. Sam ,,I did quite a bit of work on the stock prior to even taking a shot as I wanted a more scalloped out pistol grip and a slightly shorter length of pull. I decided to repillar and partial rebed as I good see areas that were badly fitting and would likely stress the whole action and woodwork without a more uniform and solid platform.Like most rebedding work the action now sits far and square with no movement even before the bolts are torqued home.The bolts just fit within the pillars with minimal clearance...Lock up on the bolts feels differently as well as you do not have any directly unsupported area or woodwork to compress or deform through overtightening...I think the general comment about bedding work is that as long as it has been done to a good standard then it can certainly do no harm and would generally help with potential accuracy....O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Onehole Will anybody be shooting consistent half in groups at 100 yards with a 223 and factory ammo? Consitent being the word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakeman Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Onehole Will anybody be shooting consistent half in groups at 100 yards with a 223 and factory ammo? Consitent being the word This stuff will give you 0.5 groups.....if you and the rifle do your bit https://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/gold-medal/gold-medal-sierra-matchking/gm223m You'll be hard pressed to buy a more consistent or accurate factory round......expensive, but exceptional for factory ammo ATB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 will my 1 in 12 twist stabilise them? I am only using 50gr Sako ( at £1 per round!)at the mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snakeman Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 will my 1 in 12 twist stabilise them? I am only using 50gr Sako ( at £1 per round!)at the mo In my experience, no....at least not consistently...69g needs 1/9 twist.....onehole will advise all you need to know about the Howa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Snakeman Thank you got your advice. I think I am limited to 55gr max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted February 4, 2017 Report Share Posted February 4, 2017 Snakeman Thank you got your advice. I think I am limited to 55gr max Yeah you may struggle to get 50-55 grain shall we say "better" factory" ammo ,,,,,Lapua and Norma appear to have some offerings but will be expensive,,,,You could try HPS ,,,,they do assemble lighter bullet target ammo to your requirements I believe?,,,,,,,I,m talking match ammo here of course ,,,this is not what you want really is it Sam???,,,,,You really do want to save up or get into reloading potentially halving your groups and cost!!!,,,Wherever your buying your ammo from someone there must be doing or know someone who reloads to guide and advise you when you decide to make the plunge ,,,I can absolutely assure you that you wont regret it,,,,every round made consistent by you and that suits your rifle,,,heaven!!!,,,,,,,,O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 Yup I see reloading the way to go if I want to reduce group. I do have people that can show me the way not something I would get into without proper instruction. Thanks for your help Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 OK i feel a bit of a bloody idiot putting this post on (so go steady on me) but it just goes to show the many variables involved. I had not shot the rifle at all until the ending of the game season but had the feeling my 223 could be doing better group wise (now not a justified feeling). My friend (a good rifle chap that knows his stuff) shot 10 groups a couple of weeks ago. I shot 10 groups yesterday and we got the variability i have been complaining about in my post. A little confession we used a plastic predator rest (not sand bags) supporting front and back of the rifle ......it felt OK, it did not feel like it was giving a disadvantage. I wondered last night about the rest. Today I have shot 10x 3 shot groups but on 2 sand bags. It did feel better and have an average of 0.64 inch. Now the range to get to 0.64 was 3/8th to 7/8 I think reloading may help here but i think the rifle is more accurate than i am. Having said that I will start reloading at some point. I do apologise if i have wasted anyone's time but if nothing else a lesson learnt and may be someone else will see how important proper rest is...........basic really and i should know better but one thinks a shooting rest should be comparable! but it is not. I will keep it for cleaning the gun! Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted February 5, 2017 Report Share Posted February 5, 2017 Sam ,,,I can see some real potential in your shooting and that of your rifle!!,,it will definitely do the half inch once all things come together,,,don't use plastic rests mate,,,,sand or similar back and front that can mould a bit to the shape of your stock will be just fine...you have also got the bug I,m afraid of getting the best from your rifle!!!,,,its addictive ,,,wait till you start reloading,,,,don't feel an idiot on posting up or asking questions on here,,,,mostly you will get some good advice........O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 An improvement for a beginner. Made my day I was much happier on Sun than i was on Sat! Thank you for the encouragement. last post should have read 7x3 plus 1 fowling shot. not 10 x3 (i have not chosen to hide the 2 worst groups)! what was in the pic was all the shots i fired on Sun. This is my first and only centrefire and what a journey its been! I so wish I had started here at UKV.... it was 2nd hand with a fair bit of the bluing missing and it turns out a non floating barrel, It had not been looked after (I now think it had got several good soakings) I would have never have bought it now i know what to look for. I also got a bore snake (have been told they are rubbish and have rods now) with a 308 patch?? though the loop, stuck in it snapping the cord and having to get it removed by a gun shop. From the shop the scope base and rings were slack so that was 20 shots wasted. then the action screws shot loose that was 60 shots wasted. the barrel was not floating 100 shots wasted with very mixed groups from exceptional to awful. Once i got some wood removed I did much testing to find the best toque setting and started to get a few touching groups which gave me confidence in the set up and that all that buggering about had no effected it. So I was now all in now! I then sent a creepy trigger to Mike Norris.......it came back and scared the life out of me and all who have tested it love it. It has a good screw on Titanium mod which i wanted to keep but was unruly on a 22in barrel (in the woods and in the 4x4) so back to Mr Norris. on my request he cut to 17in obviously re crown and i got everything Ceracoated while i was on. What a great service Mike supplies.........he also put me right on a few things pretty quickly in his direct style! Great chap. What a learning curve! I wish I had known about this site talk about doing it the hard way. 2 years F***ing about and i am now thinking about re loading. The journey continues. Next is to see if i can repeat the 0.64in over the next few weekends then take things from there. I also need to see if that fowling/cold shot is consistently high as often i may go out and only have 1 shot from a cold barrel> whats the best practice here? Sorry about the 2 years of pain but I had to let it out somewhere. Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onehole Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 Learning curve eh ,,,,mmmm,,,,well lets hope for you the rest aint so steep!!!.......Unless your lucky most will probably tell you that their first shot from a cold "clean" bore will be a little out.What you want is that subsequent shots that are from a cold fouled bore do print in the same place,,,,along with a few more of course until heat maybe starts to move things a little. Best practice is probably to zero using the cold bore fouled shot and to repeat the cold fouled shot several times to prove and in ideal conditions of course which are often as rare as rocking horse poo,,,,,,O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted February 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 Got it! ...............and thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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