Calibre dilema

[Shocks]

I would like some advice. I currently have a FC with a .22 anschutz carbine on it which I mostly use with a moderator for bunny bashing. I have as yet unfilled slots for HMR with mod, and a .270 for deer with mod. My ticket is closed at the mo and the .270 has a mentoring condition.

 

I'm enjoying what I'm doing but I need more range and one of my new permissions wants me to have a go at some foxes he has problems with every December. I know i need a new rifle but I'm not sure whether to get the HMR and use that or vary the .270 to a different centrefire calibre and seek to have the mentoring removed. I'd be happy to do the sport rifle course with the BASC. I guess my other problem is I like the idea of the long range varminting I read about on here which is why I'm not convinced the HMR will be enough. I suspect I might be talking myself into a third rifle and a probable divorce....

 

Any ideas?

[Alycidon]

Most forces wont grant HMR for foxes. With the 270 you could probably only shoot a fox when actually stalking.

 

I doubt you will get the mentoring removed, it is not legal as far as I am aware (ask BASC!!) but is not unreasonable if you are a complete novice.

 

If you want the 270 for the bigger deer then keep that slot open and upgrade the HMR to a 20 or 22 cal centerfire. If its for Roe/Munties then switch it for a .243 (or 6BR if you reload) with a fox authority. Do NOT mention that you intend to shoot rabbits at long range with it, that will not get you house points with the FEO.

 

You MIGHT get a 6.5mm that would all things but they could be iffy about foxes with it.

 

Personally I would chop the HMR and keep the 270 open.

 

A

[onehole]

Hi there Shocks.Well!? this is only an idea?First of all some tickets I believe have required mentoring even with the 17HMR or have you got this bit open?

 

If its open or not definately get a 17HMR,you dont have to spend Anschutz money on one,get a CZ heavy barrel version and have some change to spend on a reasonable scope.

As far as centrefire goes do you really need a 270?.Perhaps get a 243 a very versatile cartridge that will do varmint and deer.

I.m afraid your stuck with the mentoring but I,m sure you can find someone to oversee you,invite them to your shoot a few times its very likely they will jump at the chance to see some new ground,make friends and maybe even pick up some more shooting invitations from them you never know.

Wherabouts are you in N Devon,we may be able to put you in touch with someone.Let us know if you need help.Mentoring can bring you a lot more understanding other than making sure where and when you should be taking the shot,safety, etc etc.

I think I count a need for three rifles just tell the missus thats normal[well more is normal!!!].Better still get the mentor to tell your missus she might believe him/or her if your lucky.Good luck anyway.Onehole.

[njc110381]

Personally I would one for one the HMR for a small centre fire. I've shot vermin and Fox with both the .22 Hornet and .223 and they both do a great job. It really depends on your situation.

 

For up to 200 yards a Hornet is a wonderful little gun for both Fox and vermin. They don't really sound much different to the HMR yet they run at at least twice the power. The down side to them is that in my opinion anyway, you can only get the best from them if you reload. Factory ammo is expensive and sometimes it can be hard to get good accuracy with them. If you home load then all these problems are sorted and you can shoot very cheaply (they only use 13 grns of powder at max load!) and get great accuracy. My reloads cost about the same as it costs me to buy HMR ammo (about 20p)

 

Another option would be a .223. They shoot with much more authority both in report and recoil (although they are still very mild compared to a Deer calibre) and are a little harsh on bunnies. Cheapish factory ammo can be found (I think about 50p per round was the cheapest I found when I had mine) and they shoot well with it. It's a good calibre if you need it, but I felt it was a little OTT of my needs. If you don't want to home load this is definately the way to go, but it will cost you more.

 

The .270 is a nice round. I think it would be daft to swap it for a .243 or other small Deer gun because the chances are you would still have your mentoring condition on it and it may be a struggle to get vermin on it too. Another problem is that Deer bullets and varmint bullets are really two different things and you don't want to be running two different loads through your gun and changing the scope settings all the time. I think you should ask your FEO what sort of calibre they would accept for vermin as I know some can be really picky. I know of shooters who have had to buy a Hornet because their .223s were considered too big for vermin by their force. In my part of the world on the other hand, I have vermin cleared for .300 Win Mag! It really does vary a lot so is worth looking into.

 

To sum it up of you want a mild calibre with a lot more authority than rimfires can offer, the .22 Hornet is hard to beat. If you want to start learning the art of long range vermin control (over 250 yards) then the .223 is your gun and the Hornet isn't really capable any more. I'm selling a Hornet if you choose to take that route so PM me if you'd like the details. It's a lovely rifle and calibre but I've gone a step further and gone for a .17 Ackley Hornet. Unless you're really keen that's not a good gun for a beginner. There is no factory ammo available for it and you have to form your own brass to load with! That's half the reason I want it, it's a challenge for me to load the ammo!

[baldie]

I had a hmr when they first appeared, and there was no ammo for them. I sell them on a daily basis, and to be perfectly honest, i wouldn,t have another in the house. The ammo is expensive, they are noisy, and they are crap in the wind. They are also extremely borderline for humane kills on a fox. unless you can head/neck shoot the animal, a chest shot very rarely stops them. i know, i,ve done it, and had the runners. Not a humane cartridge for fox. Give the animal the respect it deserves, and use at least a hornet.

You would be surprised how many hmr users are switching back to the good old .22 WMR for a rimfire fox cartridge.

 

Mentoring is not legal, and the more people who succumb to it, the nearer the shooting community comes to having it foisted upon us by law. People like basc, and the various firms running spurious courses on " lamping " etc, are making money from it, and so, are actively encouraging it.

If you have an FAC, and land which is passed for the .270, and a population of deer on the said land. The firearms licensing office CANNOT refuse the grant, with NO mentoring whatsoever.

If you stand up to them, they will have to back down. Tell them you are want the refusal in writing.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with an expert friend showing you the ropes, on deer shooting, gralloching etc, safe shot etc, but the day we allow it to be a condition of our fac,s grant, will be a very bad one indeed.

[Ratwhiskers]

Yup, Baldie nailed that one.......

[onehole]

Hi Guys,on the mentoring issue or put another way being accompanied by an experienced centrefire user as a condition on a new FAC/new shooter whether legal or not, I personally dont have a problem with this requirement.I have mentored a few over the years and some needed very little help on there way and some just plainly did not have a clue ,very very scary,one guy I refused to sign him off as safe/competent.

As a club official and NRA RCO I have witnessed very very bad habits coming onto ranges as well and I think a little bit of "mentoring" in the field whether compulsory or not is a good idea.

I know we go through the hoop to get our FAC,s pain in the ass I know ,but personally I dont like the thought of anyone just being let loose with a centrefire[or any riflecome to that] whether they got 200 or 2000 acres to shoot on without some guidance.It dont take long just a few sessions and a simple letter to plod that you have covered essential points with the guy and that you would be happy for plod to consider removing the condition.

I know I will get flak over this but as I said just my opinion,be safe all the best Onehole.

[Ratwhiskers]

My gripe is normally that whether it be the Plod or various Clubs/Organisations, there's always some one either wanting to put unwarrented restrictions upon us or see the issue as a money making excersise to benifit their own agenda's. We have one of the best safety records where fire arms are concerned and this has always stemed from a self regulating shooting public.

 

l've been lucky in that my instruction has always come from very good sources, and living where l do find that my local Dept have a well grounded view of things shooting wise.

 

Just my 2p worth.

 

BTW.

 

Shocks, my appologies if this's gettin' a bit off topic. lt's just a can of worms that keeps getting kicked over from time to time.

[baldie]

A firearms certificate is issued on one point only. Whether the police deem you a safe, fit, proper person to hold one. That is ALL the LAW requires them to do. The condition of mentoring is illegal, is not mentioned in the firearms act, and can not be got round by the chief of police under the excuse of "a danger to the public without it" The license is either granted , or it isn,t. If its granted, then its for a firearm, of ANY calibre, suitable for the land it was issued on. Three levels of land suitability. Rimfire, .22 centrefire, and fullbore. If you have the land for the calibre, and the quarry on it, they cannot refuse the grant.

 

I will not put my name to any letter pertaining an individuals suitability for a firearm...that is the police,s job, and their responsibility..SOLELY. You put your name on a letter saying so, and you are legally liable for any accidents, or problems he causes, regardless of what the police tell you. They aren,t lawyer,s or judges, and a court of law would find you culpable for offering "training" whether paid or not.

 

Not giving you flak Onehole, i have no doubt whatsoever, that you have the shooters best interests at heart, and anyone helping a fellow shooter is a great guy in my opinion. What i detest, is the police using shooters goodwill, as in this instance, to make "Laws, on the hoof".

 

Its easy for me to say , contest it, as i have my ticket, open license etc, but until new shooters do, we will continue down the road of further unnecesary legislation, because we cant be arsed to say, enough is enough.

[Shocks]

My ticket allows for all calibers " for shooting vermin and ground game/fox/deer and for zeroing on ranges"

 

 

The mentor clause is only in relation to the .270

 

My personal preference is for a centre fire rather than HMR, if the farmers want me to shoot foxes then I need to be able to deliver that confidently. If I don't I may well lose the permission. So If I want long range bunny gun and foxes is that a .223, .22 hornet or .22-250? is the .22 WSM a viable alternate. I admit to seeing it as an option on the Sako Quad I was looking at but I hear very little about it.

 

I could vary the HMR any idea what a basic reloading set up cost might run?

 

Thanks for everyones input so far.

[njc110381]

It really depends what you class as long range? The Hornet is great to 200, at a push 250 yards (my longest bunny taken with my Hornet was 250). For real long range (300+) you want a .223 or one of the other larger necked down cases.

 

How much for a reloading kit? Well for an easy to use turret type press and kit I recon £150 should cover the basics.

 

EDIT.. I just re-read your last post. The Quad is available in WMR which is a potent rimfire. WSM is right up at the other end of the centrefire scale! I'm sure it was just a typo, but mentioned it just in case!

[Alycidon]

Cant see £150 covering a decent press, scale, dies, primer tool unless used not that there is anything wrong with used gear.

 

For foxing as NJC says Hornet is good for 200 yards, 204/222/223= 300 yards. 22.250 and .220 Swift will allow a bit more reach but at a cost of higher ammo costs and shorter barrell life.

 

Long range rabbits etc, any of the above but the more horsepower in the case the less the drop/drift given similar bullet weights.

 

A

[Redfox]

Baldie has it entirely right on the mentoring issue, I know how it came about too, one person to blame for that. I too am not prepared to start signing for someone, purely on the liability issues which despite police protestations is a fact in law and watch all the big backward steps if anything happens!!!

There have been moves to include mentoring for everyone whenever a change of calibre ( up or down) is asked for, (logic of the madhouse).

As for suitable calibre I agree the HMR is a waste of time and money, soon to vanish off the market too, as it is dying rapidly in America, where the real numbers are sold, I agree with Baldie too on that.

A very pleasant and extremely accurate alternative, with no issues on fox and allowed for the smaller deer is the 222 ( triple deuce) I have one and it isa pleasure to shoot, little or no recoil, you can see the impact. It is very economical on powder when you get to reload and so low cost shooting.

 

I have confidently taken foxes out to 250yds using a medium power reload with the Nosler Ballistic tip 50gr ( found the V Max good but not quite as accurate in my rifle), it only gives up about 100 - 150 fps to the 223 and is much sweeter to shoot.

Most owners would not dream of parting with theirs as, until the 22PPC it was the target and becnchrest world beater.

Redfox

[Zaitsev]

Hi Redfox, I'd be interested to know how the mentoring scenario came about. PM if you like of post it up if its something that can go in 'general population'

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 

BTW Baldie nailed the issue in his earlier post. Just interested in the whys and wherefores.

[Redfox]

Hi Z

It unfortunately cant go in the public domain, but the man concerned works for one of the organisations that we all know and dont like and I no longer belong to, as I can spend the money on better things.

Redfox

[kip270]

Baldie has it entirely right on the mentoring issue, I know how it came about too, one person to blame for that. I too am not prepared to start signing for someone, purely on the liability issues which despite police protestations is a fact in law and watch all the big backward steps if anything happens!!!

There have been moves to include mentoring for everyone whenever a change of calibre ( up or down) is asked for, (logic of the madhouse).

As for suitable calibre I agree the HMR is a waste of time and money, soon to vanish off the market too, as it is dying rapidly in America, where the real numbers are sold, I agree with Baldie too on that.

A very pleasant and extremely accurate alternative, with no issues on fox and allowed for the smaller deer is the 222 ( triple deuce) I have one and it isa pleasure to shoot, little or no recoil, you can see the impact. It is very economical on powder when you get to reload and so low cost shooting.

 

I have confidently taken foxes out to 250yds using a medium power reload with the Nosler Ballistic tip 50gr ( found the V Max good but not quite as accurate in my rifle), it only gives up about 100 - 150 fps to the 223 and is much sweeter to shoot.

Most owners would not dream of parting with theirs as, until the 22PPC it was the target and becnchrest world beater.

Redfox

 

 

Yep the .222 will certainly do all you need too great out to 300 yards.

 

I have one & a .270, but have an open ticket and can use the .270 for Foxing as well, i also have a .17hmr, not shot any foxes with it, but other vermin no probs.

 

The fact that the Police require you to have a mentor is rubbish, one calibre is no more dangerous than another, & i had a battle with my Firearms Dept over getting foxing for my .270, but give them the facts and don't back down.