17 hornet or keep my 223

[sako]

Did'nt see that bit ......."he wants fast and flat"

17 remington then!

[Jamie]

.222 Rem 40 grain Vmax @ 3000ftps at 300 yards with a 200 yard zero = 10.1 inch drop and in a 10 mph full value wind = 16.6 inch.

.17 Rem 25 grain VMax @ 4040 ftps at 300 yards with a 200 yard zero = 4.4 inch drop and in a 10 mph full value wind = 9.3 inch

 

The.17 Rem slaughters the .222in terms of drop and drift out to 300 and more.

 

I think 3000ftps is a bit low for the 222 to be fair, but even if a more realistic 3500ftps was used the results are... drop = 6.9 inch and drift is = 13.2 inch.

 

In terms of drop and drift the .17 Rem still slaughters the .222.

 

Steve

Steve,

Any chance you could put the figures up from the .204 Ruger and see how they compare with the .222 and .17 Rem?

Jamie

[247sniper]

Steve,

Any chance you could put the figures up from the .204 Ruger and see how they compare with the .222 and .17 Rem?

Jamie

 

No probs Jamie,

 

These figures are from my rifle with my velocity and my own calculated Bullet BC for the 39 SBK's

 

200 yard zero,

300 yard drop = 4.8 inch and wind drift full value at 10 mph = 9.5 inch.

 

Out to 300 yards like I have always said velocity matters. So many times I have heared that the .17 rem would be crap in the wind because of that small pill......in fact it is the opposite, having a decent BC (25Vmax) for bullet weight high Velocities results in reduced flight time, thus resulting in less time for wind etc to have an effect on the bullet.

 

For long ranger range shooting past 300 ish yards velocity plays less effect and so bullet BC has a far bigger part.

 

Hope this has been useful?

 

Steve

[247sniper]

No I have my new fast twist .223 shooting high BC bullets i wad thinking on trying some 32 grain bullets in my .204, but having a look at this trend and viewing the comparable, im not sure if there is any point?

[gbal]

Steve,well spotted-my 222@3000 is indeed a typo for '3600'fps,but the drop/drift are correct.

 

"fast and flat"- the 17 rem is indeed fast-it has a 400fps advantage over the 222 at the muzzle and 200 fps at 400y,the typical diminishing advantage of a lighter bullet (25g versus 40g) shedding velocity faster.

But it has considerably less energy at all distances (which comes in for larger vermin,and it is simply also legally inadequate for small deer.)

 

Flat:Yes,it is but not by much-drop and drift for the 17rem is about 1" less than the 222 at 300y-and drift for both (around 12 inches) will have to be compensated by dialling or hold off,so for drift it's really a couple of clicks more only.

What is flat?: well,how about +/- 4 inches of elevation/drop out to 300y? Both fail,the 17 is 5",the 222 6 inches,hence need some adjustment...

Here are a selection of drop/drift/energy figures for 17rem and 222rem at 200 zero and 300y,all commercial loadings (so comparable at SAAMI spec) with BC

 

17 Rem 25g Hornady HP (.190)@4040 0/4.8/465 5/11.7/325

20g Accutip .185 @4250 0/4.7/407 4.4/11.4/284

 

222rem Hornady 40vmax.201@3600 0/5.2/603 6.2/12.6/424

Federal 40 nosler .218@3450 0/4.9/585 6.5/11.9/425

Nosler40 .221 @ 3350 0/5.1/549 7/12.4/396

Hornady 50vmax .238 3140 0/5/524 7.8/12.1/464

Nosler 50BT .238@3100 0/5.2/605 8.1/12.7/443

Rem accutip .238 @2995 0/5.4/560 8.8/13.2/408

 

 

It's your decision whether these (very small) differences actually matter -300y is quite a long shot for either cartridge.There is a clear trade off against energy too.All this is pretty well consistent with my experience with these two.I love them both-the 222 for over 40 years,the 17 for 30 years.Both are great 250y rabbit/crow numbers,with the 222 potentially the more accurate-but not in field use.Marginally preferred 17 for terminal effect.But no contest for fox-the 222 was superior-its an energy issue-the 222 has quite a bit more,and bullets which transfer it better,and range simply increases it's advantage.For small deer,the 17 is rightly a non starter,222 is OK.

No doubt,hot loading is practiced,but about the same 'advantage' in both-and about as likely to reduce accuracy a bit,as maintain it.(let alone wear/tear etc).Look at the last two entries above, to illustrate the limited gains of fps here:the last two 222 loadings have the same bullet weight and BC,and a 105 fps advantage results in (only) a half inch drop/drift gain.

 

My general conclusion is that you can use either about equally for small vermin,but the 222 has the edge for larger.There is more 222 choice too.

 

Just to round it out,both gave way to the 22 and 6ppc-more energy,more accuracy,better ballistics,and the 22 and 6ppc in turn were trumped by the lighter bullet availability in 243,but the 58vmax .252@3750 is still not a 'flat4',coming in-with a hefty 833ft lbs at 300-at 5/9 inches.(and about twice the cost.) Even the lazzeroni spitfire doesn't quite make it: 85 .404 @ 3620..4.6/6.3/1450 ft lb.

Lighter bullets-well,I gave up with the 18g 17s when they came apart in mid flight at *****fps.The jury is still out on 36g 222 for small vermin-so far accurate,no ballistic gain,of course- 17 territory.

 

It's fun to have the options,just worth a reality check on your pets now and again,in the context of your shooting.....

.....like those Manx foxes,Steve...seem to have lost their bodies as well as tails-17 should l be fine! :-)

 

G

[Jamie]

No probs Jamie,

 

These figures are from my rifle with my velocity and my own calculated Bullet BC for the 39 SBK's

 

200 yard zero,

300 yard drop = 4.8 inch and wind drift full value at 10 mph = 9.5 inch.

 

Out to 300 yards like I have always said velocity matters. So many times I have heared that the .17 rem would be crap in the wind because of that small pill......in fact it is the opposite, having a decent BC (25Vmax) for bullet weight high Velocities results in reduced flight time, thus resulting in less time for wind etc to have an effect on the bullet.

 

For long ranger range shooting past 300 ish yards velocity plays less effect and so bullet BC has a far bigger part.

 

Hope this has been useful?

 

Steve

It certainly was Steve. As was George's post, so thank-you to you both.

Steve, Any idea how I would work out your stats with a 100 yard zero?

Also, what's the formula, to find the true BC of your bullets?

Cheers

Jamie

[gbal]

It certainly was Steve. As was George's post, so thank-you to you both.

Steve, Any idea how I would work out your stats with a 100 yard zero?

Also, what's the formula, to find the true BC of your bullets?

Cheers

Jamie

Jamie,Steve's in the central zone-hee are some commercial 204 loads: same 200 zer0,d/d at 300:

 

Hornady 32 vmax .210@4225 4.1/9.8

Rem 32 accutip .207 4225 44.1/10.i

Win silvertip 32 .206 4050 4.6/10.6

Fed 32 Nos Bal tip .207 4030 4.7/10.6

Fed 40 SBK .287 3750 4.7/7.8

Horn 40 vmax .275 3900 4.3/7.8

Nosler 40 bal tip .245 3625 5.5/10.2

 

 

Gives some idea of 204 performance (energy 5-600 approx),and how BC makes an inch+ difference.

 

I'm not totally in agreement about velocity- better BC bullets retain velocity better beyond 3/400 yards,and that may be what you buy with the bigger cases/higher BC bullets.....more energy,more retained energy,and a bit more useable range because d/d are somewhat less-at quite a price.Dependent on quarry/distance you may well not need that gain at all,but it's interesting to look at it,and be informed about cartridge choices.

G

[247sniper]

Jamie,Steve's in the central zone-hee are some commercial 204 loads: same 200 zer0,d/d at 300:

Hornady 32 vmax .210@4225 4.1/9.8

Rem 32 accutip .207 4225 44.1/10.i

Win silvertip 32 .206 4050 4.6/10.6

Fed 32 Nos Bal tip .207 4030 4.7/10.6

Fed 40 SBK .287 3750 4.7/7.8

Horn 40 vmax .275 3900 4.3/7.8

Nosler 40 bal tip .245 3625 5.5/10.2

Gives some idea of 204 performance (energy 5-600 approx),and how BC makes an inch+ difference.

I'm not totally in agreement about velocity- better BC bullets retain velocity better beyond 3/400 yards,and that may be what you buy with the bigger cases/higher BC bullets.....more energy,more retained energy,and a bit more useable range because d/d are somewhat less-at quite a price.Dependent on quarry/distance you may well not need that gain at all,but it's interesting to look at it,and be informed about cartridge choices.

G

Yes im in agreement. Velocity out to 300 works the best, and like we have both said bc is better for longrr stuff.

[247sniper]

It certainly was Steve. As was George's post, so thank-you to you both.

Steve, Any idea how I would work out your stats with a 100 yard zero?

Also, what's the formula, to find the true BC of your bullets?

Cheers

Jamie

Hi Jamie,

 

I have the data for my rifle with 100 yatds zero. Its basiclly the same tbh.

 

To calculate BC you need to measure multible velocitys at different diffrance.

I did mine at the muzzel, 200 and 400 yards then work it out by means of velocity drop.

 

You can also use the same method but instead measure the bullet drop at each difference but I prefer the chrono method.

 

 

The .20 cal bullet BC's are lower then advitised.

 

Hope this helps?

 

Steve.

[Sherlock]

Ballistically the 17 Rem thrashes the 222 into next week and back..

 

For example the 17 rem can exceed 4450 fps with a 20 grn Vmax - Hodgdons give a top load giving 4460 fps

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

 

I am currently running this bullet at the moment at 4380 fps with NO recoil. This is unbelievably devastating on small vermin and folds fox instantly.

 

For a longer range round - run 25 grn Vmax - with a BC 0.230 - at 4040 fps - Here are the drops and drifts at 350 yrds.

 

17 Rem - 25 grn Vmax at 4040 fps Drop @ 350Y =10.0 " Drift (5mph) = 6.5 " - Retained energy = 339 FPE

 

222 Rem 40 grn Vmax at 3600 fps Drop @ 350Y = 15.4" Drift (5mph) = 9.0" - Retained energy = 350 FPE

 

The 17 rem is significantly better even at 350 yrds - obviously closer range the 17 rem has even more advantage , especially if you want to look at a 20 grn Vmax at 4400 fps.

[joshmartin8]

let me know and please give me first refusal on your 223 if or when you sell it please

[Si-Snipe]

I've got a 223 sako 1-8 twist with varmint barrel at the moment but I hardly use it for any long range work so the 75gr bulletsare wasted on short range stuff. Thinking of trading it in for a 17 hornet cz. I've seen the cz shoot out to nearly 400yards on steel on fairly still day as I know wind would be a issue, so I think it may suit my needs for shooting but I am not sure? What should I do?

Unless you require maximum safety I'd keep the 223. It's more versatile.

[Si-Snipe]

Ps you could run 50-55's at reasonable speeds to take care of vermin to 400 and the 75's for longer range work or targets.

[sussexsteve]

Keep the 223 and get it re barrelled to use the 50vmax

 

Atb steve

[gbal]

Keep the 223 and get it re barrelled to use the 50vmax

Atb steve

...keeping the 223 makes a great deal of sense,but is there any need to rebarrel-let alone the cost,what would really be gained with 50g bullets-which it may well shoot well as it is? If it does not,I'd move up til it does...there is almost no performance loss at sensible distances,and as distance increases to target distances (400+)the heavier begin to have real advantages,indeed are the only option.

Or,you could buy another twist rifle-a sako- for a similar cash outlay,too and have best of both....just an idea,of the options....

[sussexsteve]

My mistake I thought the OP said it didn't shoot anything under 75g well.

Atb Steve

[Tony.H]

unless the gun is wrong in some way, then it should shoot 40grs to 75grs just because its a 1:8 twist, all that means is that it WILL shoot the heavier 22cal bullets, he prob just needs a hand to perfect his reloading, also he said he was wanting fast and flat to cira 250yards so .17rem, .204, and the lighter end of the 22cal bullets, ie 40grs.

 

is over stablising a bullet a real thing?

I am sure remember, sir-slots-alot saying he has shot the 40s in his .223 1:8 twist with no problems...

 

be good to hear off of any other people who have 1:8 .223 who can shoot the 40grs, i never got chance to in mine, only shot the 55grs.....