None expanding v-max???

[happyhunter]

Just in from a bit lamp around, only shot one dog fox as it was all i came across. The fox was spotted a field over from me and a few squeaks brought him straight over and through the fence into the field I was in, steadying the sticks the dot was place on the centre of his bib and the trigger is squeezed bang thump and down goes the fox at 115yards. Walking over about 35 off it gets up and bolts through the fence and makes it about 60yards before I get another round onto him, sideways on into the chest and down he goes. Walking over to inspect the dead fox the second round had done exactly what a v-max is ment to do, the first round has done exactly what a full metal jacket would do and just put a tiny hole in the centre of it's bib and exited just in front of his righthand side back leg which was a wound about the size of a 5p. Annoyed at this a few bunnies got a v-max sent their way and they expanded as per usual. Never had a fox move a yard with a 55grn v-max out the .22/250 in the chest let alone make it 60 yards before firing again to drop it. The v-max defiantly never expanded but how the fox moved after the first hit is beyond me! has anyone else ever had this? The rest of the batch seem spot on.

[Danpd]

In the USA the V-max is a cheap varminting bullet, produced in huge volumes. Unfortunately Hornadys QC does seem to to slip more frequently than other companies, and occasionally the product does not perform as intended.

 

If it makes you feel any better a friend of mine had the same thing happen with a 300 Ultra Mag and 185gr Bergers.

[richard griffith]

Just in from a bit lamp around, only shot one dog fox as it was all i came across. The fox was spotted a field over from me and a few squeaks brought him straight over and through the fence into the field I was in, steadying the sticks the dot was place on the centre of his bib and the trigger is squeezed bang thump and down goes the fox at 115yards. Walking over about 35 off it gets up and bolts through the fence and makes it about 60yards before I get another round onto him, sideways on into the chest and down he goes. Walking over to inspect the dead fox the second round had done exactly what a v-max is ment to do, the first round has done exactly what a full metal jacket would do and just put a tiny hole in the centre of it's bib and exited just in front of his righthand side back leg which was a wound about the size of a 5p. Annoyed at this a few bunnies got a v-max sent their way and they expanded as per usual. Never had a fox move a yard with a 55grn v-max out the .22/250 in the chest let alone make it 60 yards before firing again to drop it. The v-max defiantly never expanded but how the fox moved after the first hit is beyond me! has anyone else ever had this? The rest of the batch seem spot on.

hi happyhunter-you are not alone!have lost a couple of foxes recently using 55grain v max ballistic tip out of a 22-250 for no apparent reason other than probably lack of expansion.both were at moderate range and as I was prone for both shots I think the placement was spot on-both were hit one jumped a couple of feet in the air the other did the quickest 2 laps of a circle you have ever seen and disappeared into very heavy cover where he exited from and where I think the earth is.Another I hit at 200 yards and again I knew the placement was right.this was picked up by the farmer the next day 40 yards away in some light cover-he confirmed a heart shot but it still made that distance-fps of my homeloads have been chronographed at a mild 3600 which neverthless should be "lights out".Richard.

[TonyH]

.....The v-max defiantly never expanded but how the fox moved after the first hit is beyond me! has anyone else ever had this? The rest of the batch seem spot on.

 

No, never experienced this with V-Max bullets in either 55gr or 40gr, of which I've fired thousands. Maybe as suggested their QC slips occasionally, but the bullet behaviour you describe is extreme - it sounds exactly like what I got from the worst bullet I ever used to shoot a fox with. This was the only fox I ever shot with factory ammo, a Remington load in 22-250 using a blunt nosed hollowpoint, and like you I hit the fox in the chest and most of the bullet exited way down its flank towards the rear leg, almost zero expansion. I tend to regard the V-Max as a damn good bullet so I think you were just unlucky with a duff fluke.

Tony

[Ratwhiskers]

This issue "blew up" a few years ago, and at the time it again went down to Quality Control and Dramatic Bullet Failure. Poor charlie was no doubt dead on his legs he just needed reminding of that fact, as even an "End to End" with a solid will result in a terminal wound. It's just very frustrating not to have the first shot result in a well grassed varmint.

I've yet to see anything but flying body parts from a .284/308 v-max, but hey you shoot enough rounds you get to see some strange stuff happen.

[Alycidon]

I have seen charlie pencilled with 100gr 6mm bullets, usually he fell over but not always. Personally I have only had two move after being hit, placement was the issue with both, one was low in the front bib, the other from high above hit behind the chest, one went 50 yards, the other about 100. But both were with Berger 50gr 20 cal. Never had a issue with 6mm Vmax or for that matter 20 or 17 cal Vmax.

 

These things happen sometimes.

 

A

[CZ Varminter]

Mate I have been out lamping with someone o. NV using .243 that which promotes growth and vigour a fox 60 odd away bang it ran back 100 yrds bang sounded like another sound hit. Ran away. Thort wed missed on both occasions. Drove 3 miles round the front face of tell saw another bang it dropped on spot went to pick it up had three holes in. tough buggers some of them.

[CZ Varminter]

Mate I have been out lamping with someone o. NV using .243 that which promotes growth and vigour a fox 60 odd away bang it ran back 100 yrds bang sounded like another sound hit. Ran away. Thort wed missed on both occasions. Drove 3 miles round the front face of fell saw another bang it dropped on spot went to pick it up had three holes in. tough buggers some of them.

[landkeeper]

that has happened to me several times with factory 55grn v-max at short distances straight in and out with no expansion fmj characteristics

[happyhunter]

Yep hopefully just a one off, just loaded a batch of 200 and slotted a few bunnies out to 300yards and they are all handy fox mince now! Simon

[Red Man]

HI Happyhunter,I changed from the vmax/Amax for the exact same reason great for rabbitts,crows etc... i shot one four times before it gave up the ghost n thought i missed it twice before picking it up i'd send you the photo but its a mess!!

Give the noslers a try they proper anchor them!

[CZ Varminter]

Blitzkings also come recommended ;-)

[TonyH]

Re the two previous posts. I am no scientist but I've put an awful lot of polymer-tipped bullets downrange over the past 20+ years and have formed some ideas about the comparative performance of brands, from use on varmints (rabbits, crows, pigeons, foxes, groundhogs) and sometimes by shooting deliberately into an earth bank or large cubes of modelling clay. Nosler Ballistic Tips do not expand totally, unlike the Sierra BK or the Hornady V-Max: they cannot, since the bullet base is solid jacket material. And with MV/rotational speed the same, I don't think they are quite so dramatically explosive anyway. So there is very often some minor shoot-through, even on fox. They still undergo violently explosive fragmentation, just not quite as much as the other brands. The V-Max, as I said earlier, I've found to be consistently explosive and destructive, in various sizes and in both .224" and .204". Even at moderately extended range, when reduced velocity might suggest less immediate blow-up, I think they explode impressively well: I've hit groundhogs at 340 yards with a 55gr, and 335 yards with a 40gr, and in each case the bullet blew up totally inside the chest with no exit wound. Compare this with a large hare I hit at nearly 300 yards with a 55gr Ballistic Tip that largely exited on a chest strike with flank exit... The most dramatic blow-ups I've experienced were [a] with a 39gr Sierra BK out of my 20Tac on a smallish rabbit at 120 yards, which was blasted apart into 4-5 chunks spread across a couple of yards; and a 55gr V-Max from a 22-250 that destroyed a pigeon at 150 yards or so completely: I found the wings 12 feet apart, hardly anything else...

Each of these three bullets offers more than enough explosive capability to kill varmints instantly, so one should choose according to what performs best in one's rifle; but they definitely have different characteristics.

Tony

[Red Man]

Re the two previous posts. I am no scientist but I've put an awful lot of polymer-tipped bullets downrange over the past 20+ years and have formed some ideas about the comparative performance of brands, from use on varmints (rabbits, crows, pigeons, foxes, groundhogs) and sometimes by shooting deliberately into an earth bank or large cubes of modelling clay. Nosler Ballistic Tips do not expand totally, unlike the Sierra BK or the Hornady V-Max: they cannot, since the bullet base is solid jacket material. And with MV/rotational speed the same, I don't think they are quite so dramatically explosive anyway. So there is very often some minor shoot-through, even on fox. They still undergo violently explosive fragmentation, just not quite as much as the other brands. The V-Max, as I said earlier, I've found to be consistently explosive and destructive, in various sizes and in both .224" and .204". Even at moderately extended range, when reduced velocity might suggest less immediate blow-up, I think they explode impressively well: I've hit groundhogs at 340 yards with a 55gr, and 335 yards with a 40gr, and in each case the bullet blew up totally inside the chest with no exit wound. Compare this with a large hare I hit at nearly 300 yards with a 55gr Ballistic Tip that largely exited on a chest strike with flank exit... The most dramatic blow-ups I've experienced were [a] with a 39gr Sierra BK out of my 20Tac on a smallish rabbit at 120 yards, which was blasted apart into 4-5 chunks spread across a couple of yards; and a 55gr V-Max from a 22-250 that destroyed a pigeon at 150 yards or so completely: I found the wings 12 feet apart, hardly anything else...

Each of these three bullets offers more than enough explosive capability to kill varmints instantly, so one should choose according to what performs best in one's rifle; but they definitely have different characteristics.

Tony

Tony

 

Perhaps I should have explained a bit more:

You are right bullet choice is very much a rifle/personal preference having shot 75gr V-max with great results (no runners) but having shot 58gr V-max out of my .243 and 52gr A-max out of my .22-250 i felt i had to change just simply because of runners. I thought bullet placement is fair better than any bullet construction but the fox i was talking about earlier had two holes next to each other just behind the front leg and two plumb dead centre, I prefer the Noslers because as you quite rightly said they have a solid base which you notice when you have a fox in an awkward position to place your shot and hit bone say top of back leg, The bullet expands on the bone and in some cases you can see where the solid base has given a bit more drive (if thats how you put it) into the vitals. And as of yet no runners P.S Can't fault the accuracy of the A-max/V-max

[sgl]

Tony

 

Perhaps I should have explained a bit more:

You are right bullet choice is very much a rifle/personal preference having shot 75gr V-max with great results (no runners) but having shot 58gr V-max out of my .243 and 52gr A-max out of my .22-250 i felt i had to change just simply because of runners. I thought bullet placement is fair better than any bullet construction but the fox i was talking about earlier had two holes next to each other just behind the front leg and two plumb dead centre, I prefer the Noslers because as you quite rightly said they have a solid base which you notice when you have a fox in an awkward position to place your shot and hit bone say top of back leg, The bullet expands on the bone and in some cases you can see where the solid base has given a bit more drive (if thats how you put it) into the vitals. And as of yet no runners P.S Can't fault the accuracy of the A-max/V-max

[sgl]

Gentlemen

 

If you like your foxes to run & run after you've shot them then try the Barnes varmint grenade!A friend loaded the 62 grain in 243 & i've never been so disappointed with a bullet.

They were pretty accurate but in terms of knockin over Mr fox they just couldnt do it.

Shot about half a dozen foxes in the chest where the noslers would of battered them and they ran off, even shot 2 again and they were still alive when i got to them. Wish i'd not got 150 left. think i'll load them and shoot them at grapes like in the advert.

[happyhunter]

Hi fellas, will be sticking with the v-max but thanks for the advice on other brands. It's one he'll of a accurate load I've worked up for the .22/250 doing 3650fps so one dodgy round out of thousands won't be putting me off and the two foxes on the receiving end on Monday night dropped as per usual. One received a "Texas" heart shot at around 75 yards and was dead before hitting the deck, the other got one in the centre of it's bib at 130yards (like the one that never expanded) which never exited and left the fox like a bag of soup! The only other brand I've used before reloading was 50grn Remington accutip which were bloody good for factory loads. I have only ever reloaded using either v-max or a-max heads in .223, .22/250 and .243 all of which are accurate and destructive.

[parkyboy]

Hi all... I know you guys are talking about centre fire ammo and larger grain bullets etc, but i have also found some inconsistant performance in 17hmr v-max 17grain ammo as well. The foxes i have shot all at close range have all been boiler room shots with the round going right through with virtually no expansion leaving them like they have been stabbed with a large knitting needle....I have also shot rabbits at various ranges with many being left with no dissernable wounds and yet others have suffered horrific wounds, and one i shot the guts right out of it yet it still managed to run to its warren...I have bought a box of Hornady 20 grain hollow points and have yet to use them in anger, but will be keeping them for foxes only....I can at present see no pattern as to what result i will get with the 17 grain bullets suffice to say that when they do expand they do the job very nicely.... cheers Hugh.

[Alycidon]

I am happy with 65gr in 6mm and 20gr in 17s but in20s the SBK is a better option than vmax.

 

A

[CZ Varminter]

As with Happy. I use both vmax and SBK. They are both as accurate as each other. I prefer the SBK for the higher BC (more confidence in longer shots on any vermin) and I tell you if I hit a fox I know its not running. Shot a dog monday night 98yrds of sticks through the neck. Picked it up massive damage due to fragmentation. Stick with what your happy and have confidence in. What powder etc you using happy in your 22-250? I run 36gr R15 pushing at 3640.

[happyhunter]

As with Happy. I use both vmax and SBK. They are both as accurate as each other. I prefer the SBK for the higher BC (more confidence in longer shots on any vermin) and I tell you if I hit a fox I know its not running. Shot a dog monday night 98yrds of sticks through the neck. Picked it up massive damage due to fragmentation. Stick with what your happy and have confidence in. What powder etc you using happy in your 22-250? I run 36gr R15 pushing at 3640.

 

Hi CZ, using 35.5gr varget in the .22/250. Accuracy is great so never fiddled with the load for 7 years now!

[simon6ppc]

to be honest i think some times the bullet can go right threw the fox without catching a bone and it doesnt expand,ive had that with all sorts of bullets with my 22.250, i use a 6ppc as well and once i used some 55grain noslers and they where the opposite,they just expandid on impact,they just caused a big flesh wound and the fox would run.only when it stopped to lick it self i could finish it off,ive used 58 grain vmax in it for years now,i swear by it.

[smokin]

just to add my two penneth , for the 22-250 guys regarding the vmax debate , if your twist will support it you've got to give the 53gr vmax a try cos I'm having stunning results far exceeding any other 22 cal lubbit , relatively mild load of rl17 gives 3850 fps and the most repeatable stunning accuracy I've ever had ( I'll try and post some pics ) better bc and expansion that can only be described as shocking

going back to the non expansion thing , I think we've all had it at some point , shot a rabbit yesterday tea time with the new furball at 346 yds 25vmax and it's head almost came off all together ! yet shot some at around a 100 yds with nowhere near the Sam level of destruction

what can I tell you that which promotes growth and vigour happens

[TonyH]

...it doesnt expand,ive had that with all sorts of bullets with my 22.250...

All sorts of bullets? Not doubting your word but I find that very strange! I shot a lot of foxes (+ smaller varmints) with my various 22-250s and I only experienced poor fragmentation once - that was with a Remington factory round loaded with a crude hollow point, rubbish bullet. All the rest went down to polymer-tipped 55gr bullets , mostly V-Max. My experience was exactly the same using .222 and .223. And by far the most common experience was that there was no shoot-through at all, total fragmentation inside the fox.

...i use a 6ppc as well and once i used some 55grain noslers and they where the opposite,they just expandid on impact,they just caused a big flesh wound and the fox would run.only when it stopped to lick it self i could finish it off...

I have no experience using any 6mm round against foxes but I would be astonished if a 6mm 55gr NBT blew up so much faster than a .224" 55gr NBT that it caused only a surface wound! Were these square-on hits? I once hit a fox along its flank (it started to run as I fired) and even without direct penetration, the grenade effect of violent fragmentation evidently blasted enough tiny fragments sideways into its body to kill it before it ran more than 25 yards or so.

If you care to provide some further details I think it would promote discussion. Polymer-tipped varmint bullets have given me pretty well total reliability over 20+ years on quarry from pigeons to foxes.

Tony

[6.5shooter]

I shoot have shot 55 vmax and 60 gr vmax through my 223 and 220 swift and they are like little bombs exploding when shooting crows, foxes and rabbits.

I personally cant understand it, a bullet of 50-60 grains polymer tipped travelling at 3000+ fps is going to disintegrate when it hits.