Avian

Thanks Pat,

The problem would be that I already have a cable plugged in so as to connect it to the Nomad PDA.

I seem to be steady enough when on a tripod, for example at home I can range the front porch of farmhouse at 4.5k then move to the main house wall to the side of that and it will accurately measure the difference , I went to the house and measured it and it's spot on.

I'm overseas at the moment but when I get back I'll send you image and what details I have on the cable connection as someone else might want one in the future.  I'll also  take a look at the FFS software on the PDA as it may well have a method of getting the range reading as it seems to do everything else under the sun 

1 hour ago, pat said:

Greg,

Duly noted. If you or Ewen have any preferences for type of switch etc then please let me know Also, not sure if it would be helpful, but it looks like it may be possible to remote control both of the buttons, so you could turn 3dis and gating on and off without touching the unit [doubt you'de want to change the units remotely, but you could].

Avian,

You're welcome - and looks like you have your setup sorted. Am I right in thinking that you can trigger a reading from within FFS without needing to touch the unit ? Or do you still need to trigger it manually (albeit quite stable) ?

Cheers,

Pat.

When connected to FFS I have to tiger the PLRF unit manually and the data is passed to FFS and a firing solution calculated automaticlaly and I cna then just save that target in the target list.

I tend to have it hard wired as the bluetooth turns off on the range finder after a set time.

I can get the data form the Kestrel from FSS at the touch of a button and that is connected via bluetooth.

Thanks for the info.

Yes when tied into my Nomad PDA with field firing solutions software the software reads the data from the range finder.

When viewing through it on a tripod or even hand held it's very stable.

I have a PLRF25C

What exactly would the remote trigger do?

Hi Allan

Tried to send you a message about the labradar trigger, but it says I can send you messages

Please could you send me some info an purchase details for the Labradar trigger

100 yards is 91.44 m

100 m  = 109.4 yards

20 hours ago, AJW7088 said:

Thank you too. Hopefully it will all remain rather an academic point.

HIAdrian,

My current FAC states:

"The .338 barrel, sound moderator and ammunition shall be used ONLY for target shooting at Brookshill Shooting Club and on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim."

Its a barrel as it's off my AXMC rifle and that was purchased after the rifle was bought in .308.

It is clear from this that there is no intention by the firearms department to restrict use to only my club and ranges notified by it.

Regards

David

Yes that is my point, I do not believe it is or ever was the intention of the wording to restrict one to used clubs ranges or ranges notified by them.

I believe the wording "Whilst a member of club XYZ" is simply to reenforce the fact that one has to be a member of a club to have a firearm for solely target shooting, as is required by the act, so that if ones membership lapsed one would be breaching the condition of the FAC

Thank you for the explanation of that.

I still do not feel your argument is correct, but it's been an interesting discussion

David

Hi Adrian,

If it was that the club had notify the HO or police of any ranges it's member used then surly that would be stated in the club rules and that one could only use ranges that they had notified and not doing so would nullify your membership.  Otherwise their insurers would never insure them as they would be breaking the law in not notifying anywhere their member target shot.

Low or not if one breaks the law one is likely to loose one's FAC.

Where would  be the best place to get this clarified, the local FEO or higher up?

David

HI Adrain,

I understand the logic of what you are saying about the residual issue for the club, but one would not be shooting as a member of the club, i.e. not representing them in any way, so they have no control, knowledge of what is being done and have no responsibility of it at all.

I believe that the whilst a member of club XYZ is to comply with the act in that one has to be a member of a club, once that lapses you are breaching the condition of the FAC I don't see it has anything at all to do with the range itself or any connection between the range being used and the club one is a member of.  If it did they surly the wording would be far more specific in that area.  It would say "on club ranges or ranges they have notified"

David

Hi Adrian,

Your comments above are very interesting, but I cannot see how you come to that conclusion.

"The firearm(s) and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of
*club1, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate
financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim."

It says only whilst a member, i.e. you have to be a member of s club, which is what the legislation states.  So if you membership lapses you cannot longer meet that condition.

If it stated as a member of a club then perhaps your conclusion might be correct.

If the condition was indeed at ranges of the club, or notified by them, then surly it would clearly state that.

The fact that is says:

"and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate
financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim."

makes it IMHO clear that there is no expectancy of it being on club ranges or ones notified by them since they would all have insurance in place  and be safe  since that is a condition of the registration of a club under the act I believe.

So if what you say os correct how can target shooters turn up and shoot at the tunnel without breaking a condition of their FAC if their club knows nothing about that range?

31 minutes ago, AJW7088 said:

Yes, if your FAC condition wording did not/does not include the element that says “and only whilst a member of *club1” then the HO and police would not need to be notified of the range use (as your wording does not restrict you to target shooting as a member of a HO Approved Club only).

 

However, and this is where I think I may have been at cross purposes, the OP had not said exactly what their FAC condition says and yours appears to be different from the standard one. My points about the club notifying the use of ranges only applies to an FAC holder who has the condition wording that includes the “only whilst a member of *club1” element.

Adrian

 

 

Target only shooting is always restricted to being a member of a HO approved club, that is what the act states, you have to be a member of a club.

They are not however restricted to only the ranges for that club.

23 minutes ago, AJW7088 said:

Yes, if your FAC condition wording did not/does not include the element that says “and only whilst a member of *club1” then the HO and police would not need to be notified of the range use (as your wording does not restrict you to target shooting as a member of a HO Approved Club only).

 

However, and this is where I think I may have been at cross purposes, the OP had not said exactly what their FAC condition says and yours appears to be different from the standard one. My points about the club notifying the use of ranges only applies to an FAC holder who has the condition wording that includes the “only whilst a member of *club1” element.

Adrian

 

 

Hi Adrian,

I disagree with your interpretation of that wording.

The wording "Whilst a member of club XYS" is necessary since it is a condition of the act for people who solely wish to target shoot to be a member of a club:

section 44 states:

44.—( 1) If a chief officer of police is satisfied, on an application for the grant or renewal of a firearm certificate in relation to any rifle or muzzle loading firearms loading pistol which is not a prohibited weapon, that the applicant's only used for target reason for having it in his possession is to use it for target shooting, any certificate which may be granted to the applicant or, as the case may be, renewed shall be held subject to the following conditions (in addition to any other conditions), namely—

(a) the rifle or pistol is only to be used for target shooting; and

(b) the holder must be a member of an approved rifle club or, as the case may be, muzzle-loading pistol club specified in the certificate. (2) In this section, "muzzle loading pistol" means a pistol designed to be loaded at the muzzle end of the barrel or chamber with a loose charge and a separate ball (or other missile).

If the intention was to only shoot at that club, or ranges approved for it's use the FAC would state clearly.

If your interpretation is correct, then most target shooters using ranges that are not at their club are breaking the law. since a lot of people go to other ranges as individuals and not as part of their club competitions and also to ranges that their club never shoots at.

1 minute ago, AJW7088 said:

“The issue is not about clubs, it is about a private individual being able to set up his or her own target range.  Therefore police entry to HOApproved clubs does nto come into it.“

The overlap with police powers in relation to HO Approved Clubs depends on the private individual’s FAC Condition wording, if the FAC holder can target shoot only as a member of a HO Approved Club.

 

So on my .308 which had

"The .308 rifle, sound moderator and ammunition shall be used ONLY for target shooting on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim."

You agree I could shoot it on any range I set up providing it had insurance in place and a proper backstop.

I'll need to check the current wording for my .338, I've overseas at the moment

If what you are saying is correct and it can only be your won club then how do people manage to travel as individuals to other ranges and use them without breaking the law?

Again you are using the term club.

Yes I accept that clubs must be approved.

A private individual who wishes to use a rifle for solely target shooting needs to be a member of such a club , and visit it a number of times per year.

 I fail to see however that there is any legislation that prevent him or her setting up a range, a target with a suitable backstop and have insurance in place in case of accidents etc, for his or her own use that is not on club property.
 

18 minutes ago, AJW7088 said:

I have just read the ShootingUK article which omits to reference the s44 requirement, which is the aspect that leads to the target shooting FAC condition which includes the element of shooting “only” as a member of a HO Approved Club. It is that wording which then leads to the question about whether any range the shooter goes on to use has to have been notified to the HO and police as part of that club’s HO Approval conditions.

I think the important aspect to keep in mind on all this is that this has nothing to do with who says the range is safe and who insures it, but is solely to do with the police preserving their power to enter and inspect ranges used by HO Approved Clubs.

The power does not relate only to any ranges the club may own or have exclusive use of, because the power relates to premises which are used by the club in addition to , and distinct from, any that are occupied by the club.

 But for all practical purposes I think your interpretation is the realistic working one.

Adrian

The issue is not about clubs, it is about a private individual being able to set up his or her own target range.  Therefore police entry to HO Approved clubs does nto come into it.

8 minutes ago, AJW7088 said:

I have just read the ShootingUK article which omits to reference the s44 requirement, which is the aspect that leads to the target shooting FAC condition which includes the element of shooting “only” as a member of a HO Approved Club. It is that wording which then leads to the question about whether any range the shooter goes on to use has to have been notified to the HO and police as part of that club’s HO Approval conditions.

I think the important aspect to keep in mind on all this is that this has nothing to do with who says the range is safe and who insures it, but is solely to do with the police preserving their power to enter and inspect ranges used by HO Approved Clubs.

The power does not relate only to any ranges the club may own or have exclusive use of, because the power relates to premises which are used by the club in addition to , and distinct from, any that are occupied by the club.

 But for all practical purposes I think your interpretation is the realistic working one.

Adrian

Why do the police need powers of entry to land to check if someone is shooting safely at targets.  The safety is down to the individual as it is with stalking.  

If the FOE wanted to inspect I can hardly see and FAC holder refusing him entry as that would risk his or her FAC 

Thanks Adrain,

It must be correct or they would not accept it.

There is nothing within the legislation that states that target shooting can only be on a club range

Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997

section 44 states:

44.—( 1) If a chief officer of police is satisfied, on an application for the grant or renewal of a firearm certificate in relation to any rifle or muzzlec ertain firearms loading pistol which is not a prohibited weapon, that the applicant's only used for target reason for having it in his possession is to use it for target shooting, any certificate which may be granted to the applicant or, as the case may be, renewed shall be held subject to the following conditions (in addition to any other conditions), namely—

(a) the rifle or pistol is only to be used for target shooting; and

(b) the holder must be a member of an approved rifle club or, as the case may be, muzzle-loading pistol club specified in the certificate. (2) In this section, "muzzle loading pistol" means a pistol designed to be loaded at the muzzle end of the barrel or chamber with a loose charge and a separate ball (or other missile).

It is of course good policy to get the FEO to check the site and state that they are happy with it.

David

51 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

I believe yours is the correct interpretation

I believe it is having spoken to the guys are Orion and WMS firearms training, both of which many people use. 

If i could only be on club ranges then how does Orion and WMS firearms training operate?

This about sums it up

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/answers/legal-answers/legalities-target-shooting-private-land-104960

21 minutes ago, AJW7088 said:

Hello,

Apologies if this is a little dull, and if you are aware of all of it already!

The usual FAC condition wording relating to target shooting is similar to;

The firearm(s) and ammunition shall be used for target shooting, and only whilst a member of
*club1, and only on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate
financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim.

There are some local variations to the exact wording (such as omitting the second instance of the word "only").   At the section appearing as *club1, the name of a Home Office Approved club is inserted.

Consequently you are correct in asserting that there is nothing relating to a "Home Office Approved Range" in either the condition wording or other law.  I guess you will already be well aware that the Home Office do not approve ranges anyway, and that the responsibility for their safe construction, operation and insurance against the above types of claim, is the responsibility of the range operator and the range users (depending upon agreements between them - see the HO Circular referenced below).  

The aspect of the condition wording that is sometimes not fully appreciated is the element regarding "only whilst a member of...".  This means that the FAC holder shoots on the range as a member of the HO Approved Club (the use of the word "only" at that point is sometimes clouded by the holder belonging to more than one HO Approved Club, but the fact is that the holder shoots in their capacity as a member of one of them).  The HO Approved Club is subject to separate conditions in order to maintain its Approval.  One of the conditions is that the Club must notify the Home Office and the police of all of the ranges it uses or intends to use.  The condition is usually worded;

 

IMPORTANT NOTE

The Secretary of State and the Chief Officer of police MUST be notified if:-

a.    the club loses its range(s), or intends to use an alternative or additional range; 

 

The effect is that before a club member can shoot on a new/additional range, then the club must notify the Home Office and the police (the condition wording is "intends to").  This is because the police then have a power of entry and inspection for that range (s15(7) Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988).

So, if the holder of an FAC granted with the club related target shooting condition (for some if not all of the rifles held) wishes to shoot on a private range that the club has not already notified to the Home Office and police then the club must make that notification (for which a fee may now be payable). The safe construction and appropriate insurance arrangements must be in place and the FAC holder must satisfy themselves as to that.  The HO provided guidance on those subjects by way of a Circular some while ago (HO Circular 31 of 2006).  There is therefore a little more than checking the range is properly built and insured, if the FAC holder has the target shooting condition, but the basic premise is correct, the Home Office do not inspect and approve ranges.

I hope that helps,

Adrian

 

Thanks Adrian,

Mine used to say

"The .308 rifle, sound moderator and ammunition shall be used ONLY for target shooting on ranges suitable for the safe use of that class of firearm and with adequate financial arrangements in place to meet any injury or damage claim."

I need to check what it says now after a recent renewal as the 308 id also down for stalking and only my .338 is just for target now.

The whilst a member if a club bit would be difficult in court to enforce as use only on that clubs ranges as it does not state in your wording that the ranges have to be club ranges. 

The condition is that you can only shoot whilst a member of a club, so if your membership is current you meet that criteria and that you have insurance in place to cover injury or damage, so BASC or other insurance should cover you, no ?

So if one was a member of a club and shooting on ones own range then one would still meet the wording of the FAC condition.  If they meant it to be only on that clubs ranges surly it would state that clearly on the condition.

How do people manage if they go to a range such as the tunnel one, https://www.thetunnel.co.uk/

One does not have to be a member of their club to shoot there or arrange it through your own club.

Where does it say in the legislation that it has to be a home office approved range for target shooting.  I believe it merely states on one's FAC that it has to have adequate insurance in place.

Really nice Mark, love how the pheasants are in colour and background look black and white

I've used one belonging to a friend and just bought a FAC one, but it's still with my RFD as I had to go overseas to work a few days before he got it 😒

REALLY nice rifle, very accurate, highly tuneable for velocity and a pleasure to use

I got one of these a few months back.

Not cheap but REALLY nice 

Effortless stroke 

https://turban-shop.de/produkteproducts/pressen/heavy-praezipress-120mm/