gbal

Why is second focal plane inappropriate for a (long range) hunting rifle scope-or a long range scope in general ?

I am not entirely convinced that FFP can't have a good reticule,though it won't be bettter than the best SFP ones,and tests have debunked the 'not accurate when magnification' changes SFP myths.

I can't believe the old chestnut about 'ranging' with FFP is still seriously believed/held when LR laser rangefinders do it all so much better. On the other hand,the precision advantage of moa over mil might be a bit overstated-though 1/8 moa options is nice choice on the Swaroski x5.

Most hunters choose SFP.

Any chance of some coherent reasons rather than unsupported-though perhaps not unsupportable-opinions,that have substance for contemporary scopes (rather than those of decades ago)?

I can 'see' superb glass is nice,but I can't say I have felt seriously disadvantaged by eg NF glass-given the other excellent features NF can have. I want to see my (small) target clearly,and put my aiming mark on it precisely (not just somewhere on top)...and have reliable turrets....now any 'top scope' should be able to do that,and some moderate ones get reasonably close (I mean around £800),and I can just about believe cheaper ones might....but not at 40x,which I like-and that magnification also excludes many of the really good ones (Swarovski and S&B eg-these two compensating somewhat with excellent optics....)

That's where it's at for me...the NF give good enough opticals to make the high mag useable,enhancing at least the perception of precision,without any compromise on turrets,etc. The top end 'S&B' 5-25 class seem to have better glass-subjective but I accept- but fall behind on mag-with very small targets,that matters more to me....many scopes will do to 500yards,but at double that..it's a tad more demanding...you have to see your target....

Thank goodness there is a choice,and I can scrape by (buy?) without needing half a dozen scopes at nearly £3k each.....sounds more like a rifle price to me....or am I deluded? There is still time to get it right,but I'll need some good reasons-it's just a hobby,not an investment for the kids futures (anyhow,they can rough it with the NFs and get the Swarovski/March etc second hand in due course!) :-)

gbal

"Swarovski X5 (i) Long Range Hunting Scope" reviewed for Sniper's Hide by Josh Keim (scout.com)

is well worth reading.

I'd not consider 'paying for the name' to be credible when Swarovski invests in new CNC,tooling and measuring equipment-because what they already had was not precise enough for this 5 year project scope.

Admittedly,they didn't redesign the 'Hawk' badge,or the battery!

£2700/$3400 is a lot of money for a scope,but it deserves to be evaluated properly for what it is (as do all the others). I don't find NF to be too disappointing,as long range scopes,but this Swarovski has some nice features,and quality glass. It is intended for LR and hunters,of course;judge accordingly-as Chris says.

gbal

Indeed,and that only give parity with yesterdays 6.5x284,itself now well eclipsed by the hot sevens,and short magnums,and medium half magnums,and ...wait for next season!

Maybe that route is a young man's prerogative-it's all gone "Litz up" since we /he got the numbers sorted...though that really just confirms what was already ...err "felt"...Newton works fore and aft !

We can take some comfort from evolutionary biology though,if physics disappoints-stags with only beta grade antlers,if that,can sometimes sneak in while the big alpha guys bust each other up...some ladies are apparently impatient....

I do like the 6BR,maybe more 'over the hill' rather than 'on the hill' though,where 'butch' clout still holds. :-)

g

Brill,

I gave the "specs" you need in my post.

Best get a dental check out too -those "uber'-juggernauts must recoil a bit !

g

Napalmio,glad you are more sorted-yes,it can be a complex business-one key lesson I learned was to take all advice with a good look at what yo were trying to achieve,and whether it matched up to the advice giver's shooting.

There hae been some developments in 308 bullets-to try to get the cartridge better at longer ranges (800+ to a bit ver 1000y). The route is improved BC,but that comes with increased weight (and bullet design).Some design 'improvements may well be so for dedicated cutting edge shooters,but the VLDs have a reputation for being a bit finicky-hence the Berger Hybrids,which are claimed to be much more tolerant-ie easier to get to shoot well.

Some of this goes on in the shooting disciplines that are lilitedto the 308w cartridge-and even to the 'original' Palma weight 155g bullet. This is either some protection that your expensive chamber will not be outclassed within a season,or a restriction on progress-both are true.Open class F shooters take the unrestricted route,and the rapid progress ("space race') that ensued-it has to slow at some point (Mr Newton's laws come in)-so there are carridges that are much more potent than the 308w ( always were,but the emphasis has dropped markedly from the 'big boomers' (300 mags) which just try to outpower the wind,to the more shootable big 7s,and the 6.5/6s which reflect a differnt strategy-get off you shots in the same wind ,which makes rifle handling,and therefor recoil critical.

"Must use (palma) 155g " apart-and there are still a few developments there-the 2156 eg,not as tolerant as the old 2155)-the 308 can be improved-beyond 6007 or so,with better BC/heavier bullets -hence the move upwards for 1000y shooting (to compete with the once bench mark,now outclasses,6.5-284 with 142g BC.585@3065fps,the 308 needs a 220g BC.627@2650,and that is considerable recoil-so the fast shoot strategy isn't on.

For the club shooter,rather than national podium aspirant,the Sierra 2155 is a fine bullet (as are all the scenars-not sure about this armour piercing ability,but if it's a club rule...),and you might try a heavier Sierra for 1000,but it's double the faffing around,when the 155 isn't too bad....you will also notice the recoil in a factory rifle...you will anyhow,but heavy bullets will aggravate it.

On that,keep your eye on any 6BR you see,a very competent smaller cartridge,the ballistic equal at least of 308w at club performance (and it has world records at distance to 1000y),and so much nicer.easier to shoot....if we had less wind in UK,it would be more popular (actually,it needs more-one-moderate priced factory rifle too!). Particularly among experienced (dated!) older club members,these new fangled catridges (etc) are either unknown,or 'cannot compete' with the 308w. Just behind the times,but don't say so until you have outshot them,and let them try your rifle.

A 155 (Sierra) 308w factory rifle can perform well to 600+,and will do for occasional longer sessions (where wind reading is the issue anyhow),at reasonable costs.If it can shoot around 1/2 moa,it will be good enough for most steels to 600.And be fun.

gbal

Mark,

Not sure I'll be able to do this photo malarky-as you note I prefer 1000 words (at least) but the 'more reply optons' button comes up for me after scrolling through the posts,past the last one (after the AI ad) to the blank quick reply box,and in the bottom right corner,next to Post -there it is More Reply Options

There was a time (pre Ballistic Tips)....and still is...where much hunting ammo wasn't/isn't hollowpoint,but still is designed to expand,and does; the soft lead /spitzer/designs,eg.Some 'petal' solid copper designs too 'peel back' in the classic mushroom shape.Hollowpoints are likely to deform on impact,more than real solids (how much deformation can vary,of course).

Hollowpointing may in some bullets be designed for stability/accuracy-"target bullets".

The key phrase in the FAC guidance is 'designed to expand'.

The grass may be greener on the other side,of course-but that is often due to the wearing of rose coloured spectacles.

Things are seldom black and white,yet the law etc must try to delineate-or at least guide the wise.

gbal

Been sent this by a pal who's spent a lot of time looking for the best 7.62 blank for stalking use - both in terms of accuracy and terminal ballistics.

 

He settled on RG.

 

He's sent me a pic of a buck taken shortly after a nice stalk and high heart shot at 75m with RG 7.62 blank:

 

"Less buck for your bang" and has BAAMBI certification.

Hmmmm....sounds more like a prostectomy.

For most members of the Blank Club,with tie, weight may be slighty reduced but trajectory improves,as Quick Load predicts.Safe shooting is a bonus.

There are plenty 'properly' calculated lists,such as the Preppers Blueprint (nutrition)-the prepped prepper will have this tatooed on forearm-its for 2 adults,2 children,survival calories(1250 per day) for 1 month:all in pounds:

grains 75

dairy 24

sugars 15

legumes/veg 14

Fats/oil 3

That's some 131 lb of stuff to carry- a trolley would increase your haul of course,if any left.

Ball park- it varies in detail depending whether it's a short or long term emergency....being moderately active-perhaps wild food gathering needs 2000 cals/day-that's a fair load of berries etc.

Booze is too heavy,fags might be useful barter-if you can be callous. Matches ,though,will be handy.

gbal

good morning,fair comment and I will just add that 38 years ago we had no email ,internet or mobile phones.what happened locally stayed locally,but at that time local estates had a good relation ship with irad<institute for animal deases> and knew many of the people employed there.things move on,the irad changed its name to institute for animal health and security became a big issue and all went quiet but the pick ups still appeared every three years and the black rabbits arrived again so make of it as you will.these are my personal findings and memories, just a note for maximus number 1,the men initially claimed to be ferritting,2 I knew the men and where they worked,3 I was informed that black rabbits were used as can be seen at greater distances through binos etc

 

I know not what was really going on,but if the black rabbits were disease carrying plants in some 'experiment',you'd need to be able to identify they were still around and presumably still 'infectious' ,so need to be easily identified-if no blacks remain /survive,and population does not change noticeably,it's inconclusive at best. Seen thus,the blacks are not an error of proceedure...but there are some other ifs/buts/maybes in the detail.perhaps.As usual,the plot unwinds slowly.....

gbal

This is always a good guide of what to expect from .22LR ammo.

 

http://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/22lr-rimfire-ammo-comparison-test/

Yes,reality check using decent samples overall.

1/4,1/2,1 inch at 50/75/100y........Eley and Lapua (just which varies very slightly)

Then there are the rest-though many will hit very small barn doors pretty reliably,just not that small.

No surprises,quality manufacture/control shows. Subs not included,though.

Agreed,your rifle isn't a Bleiker,so you probably won't get such good results.It's an ammo test.

gbal

It was windy.

 

 

It's still a very impressive 8 shot group,all blown a bit right Steve! :-)

 

 

 

Steve.

Very nice indeed-tempted to check your left hand stick for the teeniest bit of flexing! :-)

It's 'try and see'; but I would not expect any sub sonic to approach even the more modest priced Eley/RWS/Lapua 'club' grades-the names change-and certainly not the premium Tenex/similar grades.

The quality control just isn't there...and the sub is probably intrinsically less accurate,as currently made?

I'd start with the above three manufacturers (Eley,RWS,Lapua),and would not dismiss match grade ammo,if you really need quietish moderated performance,especially at longer 22rf ranges (75+y eg)-not sure HP subs would be very different at the low velocities remaining at such distances,and accuracy may be more reliable...

gbal

Certain foods will last longer than your natural life as mentioned earlier , wheat was found in the Egyptian pyramids and was grown and used in crop research.

Hmmmm cf post8 ...... I might be able to use this for my next 'good mummy test'....:-)

Luke,I agree-though 4 year old coke really should not be served to your son's new girlfriend-though her tact in rejecting it might be an interesting guide!

Anyhow,the USDA are quite specific on 'best buy' etc labelling,it's a flavout advice not an edible advice,for many canned foods.

"Fresh' or "frozen' of course-ie 'not canned' need to be taken more seriously-the nose test at the very least.

"use by" in UK may well be rather naughty,implying some health risk if extended?

It is a pain trying to store new cans at the back of your shelves-though probably just easier to resort every 6months-way beyond any short term 'prep span'.

cheers (spirits seem OK)

gbal

How hungry will you be?

Taste may deteriorate (as in 'best before' and 'use by'),but if properly stored (cool,dry) ,unopened and undamaged ,tins of commercially canned

food (inc tuna) will remain safely edible for an indefinite time.USDA(Dept Agriculture).

Should see you through most temporary supply glitches....

Sprite seems to last 6m+,coke not 3 years!

Funny that.

 

One of my friday night drinking friends has just won 3/4 of a million on the Euro lottery. He lives just round the corner.

Dave,do you think he'll buy an RP accent?

( I had a professor colleague who could speak eighteen european languages,and had nothing interesting to say in any of them) :-)

Brillo-who knows when the old Sierra 155 will become a collectors item,at serious costs-or go out of production and be much sought after-the problem for relatively new shooters is that they don't need the 'temperamental' aspects of some VLD etc bullets,but also ,alas,the cost of Berger hybrids.....I'd not worry too much,unless aiming for competition podium-with a supply of the old 155 sierras,which just work pretty good in most rigs.

atb,

g

Sorry,yes I mean the 2155 155g Serra (once called palma,before that label was transferred to the newer design for the 2156).

The 2155 is reasonably priced,as in your post,and has won a lot of competitions (many of course rather restricted to 155 bullets!

I have little doubt that the current Berger is better-but you ruled out the expensive options in your original post,quite understandably.

Brillo has perhaps overlooked that parameter,cost,and I rather suspect most of the better performance is with rather more expensive rifles-as you concede-so we are hardly comparing like with like.

I'd get a couple of hundred 2155,and if/when you are convinced they are not optimising your shooting,get one box of whatever is 'better' and see if it shows on your target,enough to compensate for the considerable price premium.Whats to lose?

gbal

I'd say give the standard 155 Sierra Palma a very serious trial.They are very often a top choice,within your parameters,and very seldom a disappointing one.Many shooters would not see these as a compromise.

The odds are that the small primer option would indeed get lost in the noise.Good shooting.

gbal

They are Rempol bipods with a quick detach and i've had added angled wedges between the adaptor and stock so the ski's are parallel to the ground and won't want to dig in under recoil .

Nice. Are the Rempels using an anschutz rail-and just camming in? The adaptor set for 'QD" studs seems to need some stock holes boring...which I am reluctant to do....Good solid bipod though-less fiddly than the Evo perhaps.

G

Come on Steve-you can shoot your own groups like that,no need to buy pre perforated targets!

It is quite hard on the thumbs-if you're getting ball ache you are probably doing something wrong!

Of course,it's essential for tight neck chambers-a one off torture,as Spud notes.It doesn't separate the men from the supermen,but it does help separate the one small group from the regular small group aggregates.

Gbal-ake

ps:anything written by G Salazar is top notch info,clear,detailed,well written,authoritative,none better.