Some thoughts on trigger finger & hand positioning.

[brown dog]

Pics such as this have attracted comment on one of the marksmanship threads (ie, why the bloody hell are you holding it like that? ....or words to that effect )

 

This is why: (I hope this is understandable, it's tested my powerpoint skills to the max!):

 

 

 

It's not for everyone ....give it a go dry firing (or live!) - I'd be interested in hearing reaction!

[terryh]

BD,

 

Never heard it called 'Biathlon finger' before but this is the way I was shown a while back and the one I strive to use.

A slight rotation of the hand round the grip (CCW for RH shooters) normally helps as a starting point.

 

Will give the thumb relocation a try, always up for something new (a HSLD edge to maintain you know )

 

I feel the grip design of any particular stock will either minimise the potential effect of the thumb pressure (removing the need to shift it) or the stock will allow the thumb to lay naturally in the new location or it will preclude a shift by say pushing the thumb out in the breeze.

 

It is an important point (for me) to think of this when looking how a stock fits/feels, too big a grip and I cannot easily achive the clearance on the trigger finger without a radical change of 'stance'.

 

Cheers T

[brown dog]

Terry,

 

Blimey; what are we both doing on here at 7 on a Sunday morning?!

 

Yup, I think stock design can reduce the 'extreme' thumb I've shown -I've noticed that TRG and A5 styles allow the same effect with the thumb vertically up the back of the pistol grip (and I think the 'verticalness' of the pistol grips themselves helps too), whereas normal sporters, thumbhole stocks and assault rifle pistol grips require thumb relocation as above

 

-It's not awkward; infact it's totally instinctive once the muscle memory has been developed.

[Gandy]

Thanks for taking the time to do the power point very clear will give this a try.

[terryh]

BD,

 

Kids, dog and chickens - in that order

 

The stock is it, thinking about this, the 'classic' A5 McMillan (which was a requested upgrade to the A4) put the slimmer grip of the A3 onto the A4's front end, the Sentinal stock has a triangular shaped grip (poor desciption) which removes the likelyhood of the inside of your trigger finger touching the stock.

 

Will now go and play with a few rifles to see how this pans out.

 

T

[devilishdave]

If I need to have green nail varnish to have the best trigger pull I might give it a miss. Joking aside every day is a school day.

 

dave

[Andrew]

I used this method in military matches years ago. It worked very well for me with some rifles, others not so much. The geometry of the grip to the trigger will have a great influence on your success, I think.~Andrew

[Ratwhiskers]

l changed my hold to this system about two years ago, and found it to greatly improve my shooting.

 

l tryed to get the G/W dept here to do the same but they still instruct the students to use the old "Wring the Chicken's Neck" system of squeezing the whole bloody grip with the hand, so torquing the rifle out of aim on firing. Oh well you can't educate a lettuce can you..........

[ds1]

I gave it a try on Wednesday for 3 x 5 shot groups, no workie for me. Main issue I had was my trigger is set up for a 2 stage pull- I hold on the second stage. I could not do that with this technique - kept pulling through the trigger and missing the second stage. Probably just practice but fine motor control is not happening for me with that technique at the moment.

 

David.

[eldon]

BD as you put in post 3, I just by trial and error came across the fact that I can group best with the thumb up the axis of the stock and not clenched around the pistol grip.

Glad you analysed it.

... and I just thought it was me

[Alycidon]

If its not a stupid question what on earth are those rifles doing covered in brown paper and green tape !!.

 

A thought on the trigger pull issue, if the trigger was set right in the rear of the guard all of us should have long enough fingers to reach round and pull straight back, my Beretta shotgun is ideal !!. My hands are very small and I struggle to get a straight back pull with most stocks. Got a custom build laminated and a Fajen where they are OK but a McClassic I tend to pull the right hand side of it.

 

A

[CZ Varminter]

I use that technique on my cordless drills! A lot more stable on them never thought about applying it to rifle ;-)

[Noz_God]

Will have to try that next time im out. nice power point

[Guest richness]

Very interesting thread. Anyone shoot with their thumb vertically, like me?

[gun nut]

Just got a KKC stock, you don' have a choice, that's where your thumb has to go.Very comfortable grip and adjustable comb as standard,

took a bit of a flyer when I ordered it but very pleased with it."www.kkc.no" for anyone interested.

 

Mike

[oaken]

Does anyone make a stock to accommodate BD's "sidehold"?

With my Choate stocked target rifle, I found a dramatic improvement in consistency when I packed out the rhs of the grip (base of trigger finger) with blutack so that I almost have to stretch to get good contact with trigger. It also means that my hand goes back to exactly the same position from shot to shot.

I keep meaning to replace the blutack with plastic padding (or black liliput) - blutack goes soft in the sun so I keep having to reshape it "rolleyes"

It's a big ask to make a stock to fit all shapes and sizes of hand. I have already adapted several stocks to fit my long skinny fingers :-)

Rup

[Guest richness]

Does anyone make a stock to accommodate BD's "sidehold"?

With my Choate stocked target rifle, I found a dramatic improvement in consistency when I packed out the rhs of the grip (base of trigger finger) with blutack so that I almost have to stretch to get good contact with trigger. It also means that my hand goes back to exactly the same position from shot to shot.

I keep meaning to replace the blutack with plastic padding (or black liliput) - blutack goes soft in the sun so I keep having to reshape it "rolleyes"

It's a big ask to make a stock to fit all shapes and sizes of hand. I have already adapted several stocks to fit my long skinny fingers :-)

Rup

 

Fascinating. And CG universal triggers must help too - that sliding rail enabling what, a whole inch, of front to back movement is just genius IMO

[Davy]

Fascinating. And CG universal triggers must help too - that sliding rail enabling what, a whole inch, of front to back movement is just genius IMO

I am sure Robert will be delighted to hear such feedback

 

I have just spent a couple of weeks shooting with some incredibly precise professional shooters plus a couple of weapons manufacturers and it was interesting to sit and watch and on occasion film shooting techniques. I certainly spotted something in my method that needed straightening out.

 

Anyway, trigger style. My wife is ex Danish Army and since leaving has developed a style based on light triggers that is similar to that described here. She was rash enough to do this on one of her rifles and was all but spat at for such a thing! She then received a lecture on the dynamics of muscle control and the upshot was such style (As far as the person we were speaking to is not suitable for anything other than 'three stage triggers' OK, so she was told.. The argument was the compression between thumb, palm and trigger finger is a far more natural and precise action.

 

An interesting take on it I thought.

[6.5shooter]

Im looking into changing my AI stock on one of my rifles solely for this reason as I cant get a consistent technique which Comes to me naturally while shooting this rifle.

I have to spend a little time getting my hand just right to make sure im not putting any pressure on the stock.

My other rpa rifles however have the interceptor style stock like the mcmillan a5's and it comes much easier to me to get a consistent hold and my shooting is very consistent because of this.

While shooting my pistols (NI resident), this technique is emphasised alot more and it takes alot of practice to be able to shoot a pistol like a pro!!!

I squeeze the front and rear part of the pistol grip only while making sure im not putting any pressure on the sides of the grip atall! This is such a simple thing to do and will give great accuracy, accuracy I thought never possible to achieve with a pistol until I mastered it.

I watch some of my other club mates shooting and the pistol is jumping left and right with recoil throwing shots everywhere and they grip it twice as hard to try and stop it but they only end up tensing their shoulders and they make it worse plus the fatigue themselves in no time.

It took me alot of dry firing at home and alot of rounds down range to get it right, practice pays off immensly as I can shoot my .45 acp like my .22 pistol.

[brown dog]

and was all but spat at for such a thing! She then received a lecture on the dynamics of muscle control and the upshot was such style (As far as the person we were speaking to is not suitable for anything other than 'three stage triggers' OK, so she was told.. The argument was the compression between thumb, palm and trigger finger is a far more natural and precise action.

 

An interesting take on it I thought.

 

I guess the 'expert' wasn't an olympic-standard biathlon coach then A run-of-the-mill British Army small arms instructor would spit his dummy too. It just sounds like the dogma typical of a bog-standard instructor who's thinking on trigger control will be no more developed than "if it isn't in the pamphlet, it isn't in the pamphlet".

[Davy]

To the best of my knowledge he is not only an ex international competition shooter, he is also the hands on owner of what is supposed to be the largest independent rifle manufacturing facility in Denmark. He is also the person who worked on the trigger for one of my competition rifles (Which he also designed) He also showed us his cut rifled barrel making facility from solid blanks to finished barrels. Not bad for someone who looked to be sub 40 years old.

 

Of course it is horses for courses and his observation was regarding conventional two stage triggers.

[Guest richness]

I talked to Si about shoulder/elbow tension, pressure on the buttpad/tension on the fingers, and grip of the palm and we had just about polar opposite techniques. What interested us was that we realised when we went through it that we both had very exact and consistent approaches that we each carefully used every time but had not previously realised at all!

[ionic]

I have small hands, so my trigger finger naturaly falls to the right of the trigger pad. Some shot guns have adjustable trigger positions, eg Berreta, which are ideal for me. However, I recently tied a thumb hole stock on a R93, and that put my finger square on the trigger, pity about the price though!

[brown dog]

A useful quote:

 

MORE SHOOTING FUNDAMENTALS

By

Dick Domey, Ph.D.

Former US Olympic Team Biathlon Coach, Olympic Biathlon Coach.

 

The trigger hand should firmly grasp the pistol grip with the fingers with the thumb pointing upward toward the bolt.

 

The three fingers and the thumb will grasp the rifle while the trigger finger is relaxed and ready to rapidly squeeze the trigger when the sights are aligned and the sight picture is perfect.

 

It has been shown that if the thumb is wrapped around the pistol grip the action of squeezing the trigger can cause the entire hand (and rifle) to rotate, thus disturbing the aim before the bullet has left the muzzle.

 

A little practice with the thumb up will show that even a very vigorous squeeze can still allow the bullet to hit the target.