Where are all the .204s?

[Alycidon]

A, just curious, not knocking your practice, but if (as you seem to suggest) you don't especially want to shoot much beyond 250, why do you run a custom 20BR...? I mean, my factory .223 is more than adequate out to that range! Being a bit slow today: I don't understand your ref to taking a rifle to the USA - explain..?

Regards, Tony

 

 

The USA comment; you were talking about shooting ground hogs or prairie dogs so I assumed you were or had been US bound.

 

Why do I run a 20BR when as you say a 223 would do almost all of what I want, to be a bit different, to have a 500+ yard capability if the shot and conditions allow. I also want my foxes dead not educated so a bit of overkill does no harm especially if a long shot is on the cards. 300 yards is a bit marginal for a .223 on a fox. A nice ultra flat round like 20BR zeroed at 160 yards (.25 inch high at 100 yards) needs only 2 clicks for 200 yards, another 5 clicks for 300 yards, another 7 for 400, another 8 for 400 and another 9 for 500. Downloading anything gives a much longer brass life, so a bigger case = lower pressures for a given bullet/velocity.

 

The builder gets about 80 cycles from a Winchester 22.250 case!!. In 1965 he also built and runs the ultimate 22, a 7x57 case necked down to .22, downloaded a 50gr (55?) Sierra 1360 moves at 4000fps. Running a full house load he is up to 4500. Again case life is almost indefinite. He was shooting foxes and crows at 400 yards plus before most of us were born and years before the sport took hold in the UK.

 

A

[pat]

Alycidon,

 

Might I humbly suggest that you consider trying something a bit heavier than the 39gn SBK ? The BR case will show little to no improvement over a PPC when running such light bullets but really shines when you want to drive something a bit "beefier", and as an added bonus you get a nice increase in BC too, great for those longer range shots. 3600fps for a 39gn SBK is really pedestrian, your brass will last forever If ever you get adventurous, you should be able to see 4100fps without too much effort, a PPC can manage 4000 so a BR shouldn't struggle to win you another 100, but of course that extra speed will come at a considerable cost in powder relative to the PPC (the ballistic efficiency will be lower). Once you move on to 50gn or 55gn bullets the extra capacity of the BR over the PPC allows you to load sufficient slower powder to yield a tangible benefit over the PPC case, but you do need a decent length barrel for it to work. Well worth a look / try if your twist rate will stabilise these

 

In terms of what works well for 20 cals... 204 Ruger, 20 Tac, 20 Prac etc work really well with 32gn bullets. 39-40gn bullets will work brilliantly from a PPC but be careful with the twist rate, 1 in 12 seems marginal on these, 1 in 11 or slightly faster twist should fix that. For 50gn bullets the BR case seems to be in the sweet spot. The 55gn might work better with a slightly larger case but should still work with a BR.

 

Cheers,

 

Pat.

[TonyH]

Thanks for the informative response.

The USA comment; you were talking about shooting ground hogs or prairie dogs so I assumed you were or had been US bound.

Well, I just threw that out as my longest shot using .223 - not impressive compared with others here, though mine is a skinny-barrelled factory rifle and my handload uses the 40gr V-Max. It just happened to occur on one of my trips to Ontario hunting groundhogs - my friend out there uses his .243 Ackley (best groundhog 937 yards...) and sometimes his wife's 6mm Rem.

 

Why do I run a 20BR when as you say a 223 would do almost all of what I want, to be a bit different, to have a 500+ yard capability if the shot and conditions allow. I also want my foxes dead not educated so a bit of overkill does no harm especially if a long shot is on the cards. 300 yards is a bit marginal for a .223 on a fox. A nice ultra flat round like 20BR zeroed at 160 yards (.25 inch high at 100 yards) needs only 2 clicks for 200 yards, another 5 clicks for 300 yards, another 7 for 400, another 8 for 400 and another 9 for 500. Downloading anything gives a much longer brass life, so a bigger case = lower pressures for a given bullet/velocity.

Points taken.

 

The builder gets about 80 cycles from a Winchester 22.250 case!!. In 1965 he also built and runs the ultimate 22, a 7x57 case necked down to .22, downloaded a 50gr (55?) Sierra 1360 moves at 4000fps. Running a full house load he is up to 4500. Again case life is almost indefinite. He was shooting foxes and crows at 400 yards plus before most of us were born and years before the sport took hold in the UK.A

Hmmm.... Would that be the 22-4000 like the dummy round in front of me, donated by a certain gentleman in the E.Midlands I'm acquainted with? Built his first varmint rifles around the year you mention, not wholly, er, kosher with either his employers or the plods? Used LandRover drive shafts which he says make excellent barrels..? He suggested to me that the best 22-250 cases started with 30-06 brass, with which one could make nice long-necked cases.

TonyH

[deerhunter]

We don't have the same varmint type shooting available in the UK as they do in the States, ie. off a bench with the the cool box next to you.

Was going to become my first choice for foxing but speaking to a local keeper who has run one for three years and shoots 200+ fox a year, he admits to a certain amount of disappointment with the caliber even though he raved about it's abilities when he first had it. He's now taking the .243 with him most days.

His biggest gripe was bullet blowups on the sligthest piece of grass or other material or light strikes where the bullet has disintigrated on the shoulder or other boney parts of the fox.

I realise this can happen with a lot of fast moving cartridges but like he says, his job depends on vermin control and sometimes it has to be a Texas heart shot to get the job done and this is where 22-250, .243 etc have the edge.

The chap in question is a serious rifle enthusiast and we swap a lot of our findings as we're both out an awful lot doing a similar type of shooting.

The other drawback is the fact you can't slot small deer (legally) with it, which I need as we shoot munties on sight all the year round (Heavens save us from the tossers that want a close season on munties).

I'm still considering a 20 as a fun gun, but feel it will never supercede my .243 (now Ackley) as my do it all gun.

Just my thoughts.

Pete.

 

Great thread,i find this an interesting topic!,i think the reason that they are so popular in the states is because a lot of trappers use them on Coyotes and reckon the round doesnt do much damage,that would strike true with your mans account of them breaking up.

Im still considering one as an inbetweener and would like to do a bit of long range stuff with it....How are they affected by the wind????

[Alycidon]

Alycidon,

 

Might I humbly suggest that you consider trying something a bit heavier than the 39gn SBK ? The BR case will show little to no improvement over a PPC when running such light bullets but really shines when you want to drive something a bit "beefier", and as an added bonus you get a nice increase in BC too, great for those longer range shots. 3600fps for a 39gn SBK is really pedestrian, your brass will last forever If ever you get adventurous, you should be able to see 4100fps without too much effort, a PPC can manage 4000 so a BR shouldn't struggle to win you another 100, but of course that extra speed will come at a considerable cost in powder relative to the PPC (the ballistic efficiency will be lower). Once you move on to 50gn or 55gn bullets the extra capacity of the BR over the PPC allows you to load sufficient slower powder to yield a tangible benefit over the PPC case, but you do need a decent length barrel for it to work. Well worth a look / try if your twist rate will stabilise these

 

In terms of what works well for 20 cals... 204 Ruger, 20 Tac, 20 Prac etc work really well with 32gn bullets. 39-40gn bullets will work brilliantly from a PPC but be careful with the twist rate, 1 in 12 seems marginal on these, 1 in 11 or slightly faster twist should fix that. For 50gn bullets the BR case seems to be in the sweet spot. The 55gn might work better with a slightly larger case but should still work with a BR.

 

Cheers,

 

Pat.

 

I am set up with a 1 in 9 twist for the Berger 50 grain, I drive these at about 3500, they shoot .2-.3s if I do my bit and even without a moddy I see the impacts OK. I head shot a 150 yard rabbit with one a few days ago and thought I had missed until half his head disappeared. I know the twist rate is not ideal but I tried 40gr vmax as I was looking for something to explode crows rather than drill them, I also drilled a pigeons crop, bloody great cloud of feathers and bird staggers off, might have just nicked him I suppose, it was 140 yards shooting off the top of a fence post so hardly ideal.

 

Vmax 40s disappeared (broke up?) at about 3600 (twist+speed to fast for them I suppose) but the 39s as well as being slightly more accurate have performed very explosively at about 3600 all be it at ranges that are not that far to date. I cant see the point of driving a bullet at 4000 when it is doing a very accurate job at 3500/3600. Pressures are lower, you see the impact due to lower recoil, less powder with all that implies and just as deadly. The ideal bullet would be a 50gr Blitzking

 

I am getting primer cratering start at 3600 with the 50s and case web expansion at about 3800. I know I could get the 39 over 4000 yes but it would not kill any deader and the drops at the ranges I mainly shoot at would be the same.

 

A

[Alycidon]

Hmmm.... Would that be the 22-4000 like the dummy round in front of me, donated by a certain gentleman in the E.Midlands I'm acquainted with? Built his first varmint rifles around the year you mention, not wholly, er, kosher with either his employers or the plods? Used LandRover drive shafts which he says make excellent barrels..? He suggested to me that the best 22-250 cases started with 30-06 brass, with which one could make nice long-necked cases.

TonyH

 

 

You have got him absolutely spot on, he has retired from Hollands now apart from building an odd rifle and doing repairs for the trade and of course his political activities. . By crickey he can certainly build a rifle when he puts his mind to it. I assume you have had a look at the beast itself !. Just a shade on the heavy side, my lightweight 20BR finished up just over 14lbs, a lightweight compared to his 22.4000. His son is an engraver for the best London Houses, my 20 has caliber, builders name, neck size etc engraved in best Holland & Holland type face.

 

He has forgotten more than most so called experts know about rifle building and shooting at long distances, he was wacking foxes at 500 plus 45 years ago. Who else insists on making all his own reamers, no PTG stuff for him, can make his own barrels from LR half shafts (excellent grade of steel in series 1s). Did he tell you about that Hare in the 62 winter with his Hornet !, Measured the distance with a surveyors tape measure, took 25 rounds to get a hit, was able to walk the bullets in watching for impacts in the snow.

 

Life will be far poorer for his passing, he does not even have a computer so we are unlikely to see him posting here but I have tried to persuade him.

 

A

[Guest richness]

I'm more and more taken with my 204R.

But i've had to work on it

Their main prob imho is that most stock barrels don't work with the heavier bullets v well and there is sod all factory ammo available. This is affecting their mainstream appeal. For foxes i'd want the 40gr for sure.

With a faster twist barrel and pushing 39sbk at 3750 with a bc not far off .3 i'm finding it leaves a standard twist 223 shooting 52gr amax for dead past about 350y in any sort of wind and is a smoooth feeling rifle with excellent efficiency. But what percentage of people are bothered by that? not many people shoot crows beyon 350y and therefore 204r has little extra mainstream appeal over 223.

As a 500y crow gun. i absolutely love it but i don't think the marketing boys have got the "pick it up off the shelf and go shooting foxes" thing right when compared to the hugely popular and established 223.

As an "in the know" calibre i think it has a huge amount going for it. I just think it would have done a lot better if they'd set it up (and marketed it) to shoot 40gr real fast, rather than leaning it towards 32gr at "world's fastest" speeds....

Also, people wanting good ballistics for long-range varminting in a light cal, can simply rebarrel 223 in a fast twist and spin 75gr amax out therre....so where is 204 in all that?

I swear, if it wasn't for the 39gr SBK, 204R would have fallen by the wayside (especially considering how mediocre the 40gr vmax is) but WITH that magic pill, the calibre really stacks up for enthusiasts, at least

[Alycidon]

The 39SBK is an excellent bullet agreed, much better than the 40gr Vmax.

 

Why has 204 not caught on, because most people here are conservative, there mate has a 222/223/22.250 so thats what they must have. RFDs no little more. Up to 300 yards then there is not that much in it, generally not many go over 300 do they and most will want to use factory ammo.

 

Those trailblasers using 204. Prac20, and other 20s will show the way but it will take a while.

 

A

[bigdan]

HELLO ALL just picked up a savage model 16 .204 and am working my way through 100 rds of remington 32grainers . im off to the game fair at the weekend with southerner so hopefully ill be able to pick up some 39grn blitzkings. the remmy factory rounds are £1.30 each !!!!! southerner is going to give me a crash course in reloading this week so it will be considerably cheaper from then on.

so far ive been very very impressed , though its just too much gun on rabbits as theres not much left ! ive yet to try it on fox. has anyone got a pet load they can recommend? finman has very kindly given me one based on the 39grn blitzking. any info would be greatly appreciated , regards dan.

[Finman]

HELLO ALL just picked up a savage model 16 .204 and am working my way through 100 rds of remington 32grainers . im off to the game fair at the weekend with southerner so hopefully ill be able to pick up some 39grn blitzkings. the remmy factory rounds are £1.30 each !!!!! southerner is going to give me a crash course in reloading this week so it will be considerably cheaper from then on.

so far ive been very very impressed , though its just too much gun on rabbits as theres not much left ! ive yet to try it on fox. has anyone got a pet load they can recommend? finman has very kindly given me one based on the 39grn blitzking. any info would be greatly appreciated , regards dan.

 

 

hi there bigdan,

 

I have good luck with the 32gn VMax with my rifle, using H335 over Rem9.5 primers. The load gets them moving at around 4100fps and they are as accurate as the 39gn Bltzkngs, but the powder fouls the bore something shocking...I have to scrub carbon out of it for days after, so I have abandoned it. May be that it behaves better in your gun. The load is 28.3gn H335.

 

bet wishes,

 

Finman

[sidesy]

after 12+ months of looking and NOT want to pay £800+ i have found a remy varmint and i'm very much looking forward to working up a load , doing all the normal things you need to do to a remy and having a VERY long range carrion basher....watch this space

[JohnGalway]

What's the effective range of the 204r on crows and foxes respectively? I was at a gunsmith Monday and got tempted by various calibres, one of which was the 204r.

[TonyH]

after 12+ months of looking and NOT want to pay £800+ i have found a remy varmint and i'm very much looking forward to working up a load , doing all the normal things you need to do to a remy and having a VERY long range carrion basher....watch this space

I will watch this space with interest, as I'm sure will others. I wonder what you consider to be "all the normal things" to be done to a Remington? For me, this has always meant taking a few turns off the ejector-plunger spring, and replacing the trigger - my Rem 700 VS in 22-250 wears the same Jewell that my previous one did. Do you do more than this? I must say, if this model had been available in .204R or another 20 cal I'd have gone for that, although I've enjoyed 22-250 in the past; this rifle is still proving awkward to work up loads for, which I haven't experienced in the past, and I'm wondering if there's something fundamentally wrong with it. Anyway, the 20 cals still interest me a lot and i want one sometime, for long range carrion bashing etc, so do keep us updated.

Regards, TonyH

[riddos204R]

Been using a 204 for about half a year now and have never had so much fun with a rifle. Absolute dream calibre to shoot, very confidence inspiring as it is desperately accurate especially now i reload. Even the factory ammo in 32 and 40gr varieties were capable of 1/2inch at a 100yards. I have used several other calibres, 22-250, 223, 222mag for similar sorts of shooting but none come close to the 204 in terms of shooting enjoyment. Brass and bullets are easy to get hold of, so are dies, the only downside is the factory ammo is slightly harder to find but any gunshop will be able to order some.

I am currently using the Barnes Varmint Grenades with 29.0gr Varget and CCI BR4's. Rabbits virtually vaporize with these. If anyone is considering a 204, stop considering and start buying!

[TonyH]

Been using a 204 for about half a year now and have never had so much fun with a rifle. Absolute dream calibre to shoot, very confidence inspiring as it is desperately accurate especially now i reload. Even the factory ammo in 32 and 40gr varieties were capable of 1/2inch at a 100yards. I have used several other calibres, 22-250, 223, 222mag for similar sorts of shooting but none come close to the 204 in terms of shooting enjoyment. Brass and bullets are easy to get hold of, so are dies, the only downside is the factory ammo is slightly harder to find but any gunshop will be able to order some.

I am currently using the Barnes Varmint Grenades with 29.0gr Varget and CCI BR4's. Rabbits virtually vaporize with these. If anyone is considering a 204, stop considering and start buying!

 

Interesting, thanks for the report. When I tried Varmint Grenades in the .223 they didn't shoot very consistently at all, but glad to hear they work for you. My initial interest in .204 Ruger changed to one of the 223-cased rounds, and I went with 20Tac in the end; like you, I'm having fun with the 20 cal, shoots extremely well and inspires me to push out the distance. My click-chart is still being tweeked: last night I bagged two bunnies at moderate distances (150 and 300+) and only just missed one at 415 as the light was going, saw the bullet strike with an explosion of earth dead in line immediately behind Brer Rabbit, must have grazed his fur... Adjust one click at that distance!

I'm not the only one who'd like to hear occasional updates on your results - quite a few 20-cal users here.

Regards, Tony

[bri2506]

hi,

 

I love my .204Ruger. It is my go-to for varminting (crows, rabbits, foxes etc). Last month I shot more than 120 shots through mine (Sako 75-I Varmint on a McMillan A5), from 80 to 310 yards. Dead on the spot. Longest fox 278 yrds, through the shoulder, out the other side (along with half its lung...), fox dead 20 yards from strike. all other foxes dead on the spot with no bullet exit (from 60 to 190 yds).

 

It is a great calibre, accurate, low noise, low cost (still shooting the factory ammo cases that I have reloaded 8 times!) and love the ability to see the strike before you hear the 'thump'! I shoot a 39gnSBK load, zips out of my 22 inch barrel at 3890fps and its flat as a pancake. I have a 6mmBR for the windier days for foxing, but I find them on a par with each other on fox.

 

Friend of mine has a 20Tac with a 1:8 twist barrel on a Sako 491 action. Shoots 50gn Bergers like a demon! 20s rock, everyone should have one!

 

best wishes,

 

Finman

 

 

Im just about to have my sako 75 mk 1 223 rebarrelled into 204R. Baldie is sorting the job out, getting excited, its like xmas.

 

What cutters are you 204 boys using to trim cases down. and any spare loading gear is been sort after

[riddos204R]

Interesting, thanks for the report. When I tried Varmint Grenades in the .223 they didn't shoot very consistently at all, but glad to hear they work for you. My initial interest in .204 Ruger changed to one of the 223-cased rounds, and I went with 20Tac in the end; like you, I'm having fun with the 20 cal, shoots extremely well and inspires me to push out the distance. My click-chart is still being tweeked: last night I bagged two bunnies at moderate distances (150 and 300+) and only just missed one at 415 as the light was going, saw the bullet strike with an explosion of earth dead in line immediately behind Brer Rabbit, must have grazed his fur... Adjust one click at that distance!

I'm not the only one who'd like to hear occasional updates on your results - quite a few 20-cal users here.

Regards, Tony

 

 

Ive heard very good things about the 20TAC and know a couple of people using it and they are very pleased, right up there with the 204R. Makes much more sense if you allready own a 223 etc. That is THE most useful thing about the 20's, seeing your strikes at almost any range, especially on dry ground. 5 bunnies fell to it last night.

Has anyone tested any of the Berger bullets? (30, 35 and 40grainers) They are expensive so would like to know if they are worth it...thanks.