Be kind still new and overwhelmed

[Aaron]

Firstly hope everyone had a lovely Xmas,  I managed to get to the range to test out some of my first batch of reloading for the 22_250 

Went with serria 55gr pills one a soft point the other match king tipped and there a boat tail, 36.4g of n150 and federal primers getting in around 3800fps

 

Soft points shot really well considering I made them 😂😂😂 the other not so good was getting 2 inch groups, not sure if that's because there a longer bullet and if that has anything to do with pressure on powder inside the case answers below please 😂😂😂

 

Anyway what would be my best step to take next, is it play with seating depth?? And is there a easy way to figure that out I planned on using my mag for length then knocking them back to where I am currently seated but not sure how big of a jump back I would go 

 

Pic of my best group of the day 

[srvet]

How have you worked up to the load? 3800fps with a 55g bullet sounds spicy! Presumably you have worked up to this from a lower powder charge. Are there any pressure signs? Might be worth posting some pictures of the case heads from fired cases. 

[Laurie]

10 hours ago, Aaron said:

36.4g of n150

 

You do realise Viht's maximum charge of N150 for the nearest equivalent bullets are  around 4gn less. Your charge of 36.4gn actually exceeds Viht's max for the 45gn Sierra SP (35.8gn)! This is a charge that might just be suitable for the higher case-capacity 22-250 Ackley Improved version of the cartridge.

Where have you got this load from? Also, what brass are you loading? (That used in American manuals' pressure gun tested loads is usually Winchester or one of the other American makes which are more often than not thinner walled and higher capacity than European equivalents, thereby reducing pressures / increasing allowable loads.) 

Unfortunately, the American manuals have almost entirely dropped Viht powders in their most recent editions (just in time for the Great US Powder Crisis of 2021-23 which has seen Americans scrambling to find and buy this company's grades, Ha! Ha!).  Over the years, Nosler has managed to squeeze out some of the highest MVs published, but in the current manual, only one load out of ten just achieves 3,800 fps (from a 24-inch barrel) with 55gn bullets and the powder used, Hodgdon CFE-223, is a much higher energy double-based type. The other nine powders max out at 3,598 to 3,747 fps - and they're warm at that.

[Aaron]

15 hours ago, srvet said:

How have you worked up to the load? 3800fps with a 55g bullet sounds spicy! Presumably you have worked up to this from a lower powder charge. Are there any pressure signs? Might be worth posting some pictures of the case heads from fired cases. 

Yes chum worked up to that load and was the best results out of the loads,a  fellow shooter who shoots the same rifle etc runs it similar with fantastic results he did warn me it's little  over recommended amount but most companies underrate there max load 

 

Cases etc look fine but I'll post pics tomorrow for second opinion 

[Montey]

Hi I take it that’s a group shot at a hundred yards? I recommend you watch the Scott Satterlee load development YouTube I’ve used this on every calibre I reload for from 22-250 to 300wsm and it works.Going over max charge weight is pushing your luck I’ve seen the results and it’s not good what you might get away with on a cold day can soon change on a hot summers day.

I for one have great respect for any advice given by  Laurie when it comes to reloading I dont know him personally but have shot Fclass when he was also competing as well as read his published articles  he is very well respected.I use CFE-223 in my 22-250 but I think it’s no longer available.

my advise would be take the time to work your load up in .2 of a gram increments and with the 22-250 and 243win I only shoot two then wait for the rifle to cool rite down so I get a true speed.

[maximus otter]

Duplicate post.

[maximus otter]

4 hours ago, Montey said:

…work your load up in .2 of a gram increments...

0.2 of a grain increments.

😉

maximus otter

[Montey]

Thanks for the correction that’ll teach me to proof read.

yes grains 

[Richiew]

Don’t know about your calibre but in my 308 I’m plus two grains over Vihtavuori max for my bullets of choice and am not near what Berger quote as their speeds . Hornady book is much closer to my loads but I’m still not in their superformance speeds . There are articles hinting at loading to compressed/ slight crunch then backing off a bit . Tried that and got a good load at 44.5 n150 178 eldm. No pressure signs and all worked great. In the 223 I’m half a grain lower than viht max as at max it’s a Big Crunch with pressure signs with the 60 grain Berger but the 73and 75 can be loaded to max fine , I’ve loaded a little lower to account for hot days and changed to magnum primers. 
Happy new year to all and Hope this was useful, I’m sure there will be lots of comments 

[Laurie]

41 minutes ago, Richiew said:

Don’t know about your calibre but in my 308 I’m plus two grains over Vihtavuori max for my bullets of choice and am not near what Berger quote as their speeds .

 

A problem with Viht data is that the company never seems to ditch any older loads. As it tests new bullets, it simply adds their loads to its existing data. Some older Viht maxima are low by what works in practice, and what other reputable sources quote. That certainly applies to early Viht 308 Win loads, some of which were first published getting on for 40 years ago. I never understood how Viht got to its 155gn Scenar 308 + N140 load at the time, and I don't understand now why that maximum load, or maybe something very close to it, is still being published.

Some of today's recently added Viht loads are not at all mild, quite the reverse in fact. The company seems to have woken up to the realities of selling propellants in the world's largest handloading market, the US - high MVs sell products; low ones don't. Publish mild, conservative loads with low MVs by competitors' standards, and many American shooters simply discount them. I occasionally wonder if Viht is in danger of swinging from one extreme to the other with some recent additions.

The problem with this situation is that unless you have other yardsticks to add to a single Viht loads combination and make comparisons, the potential inconsistency makes it difficult to know which of the two Viht modes it falls into. Unfortunately, as I said, current American reloading manuals have largely discarded their previous Viht powder loads, in some cases dropped the marque almost entirely, so that source is unavailable.

In the absence of maximum load values, MVs become an alternative metric as to whether a shooter's loads are likely to be 'cool', 'hot', or anywhere else on the spectrum. Unless a 'wunder-powder' such as the RS EI grades or Hodgdon Super performance grades is being used, a load's speed becomes a good indicator as to whether it fits into the norm pressure-wise. Pressure creates MV and there's no free lunch here. There are two caveats of course, neither of which we know in this case - the source of the MV quoted as many optical chronographs still in everyday use are unreliable; the rifle barrel length employed as that obviously affects results. With a 24-inch barrel factory rifle, 22-250 55gn bullet MVs that are 'around 3,800 fps' MVs are on the high side (to put it mildly) against nearly all published results in loading manuals. It's not just Nosler, the current Ed VI manual from Sierra (the source of the bullet used by the OP) has only two loads that achieve this MV, and both use 'wunder-powders' (Re17/RS60 and the new Alliant Power-Pro 2000 MR).

Hence my curiosity as to where the OP obtained this load from. It may be perfectly 'legit' and within safe and allowable pressures, but there are unanswered questions with the information currently provided. This is a load combination put up on a forum for widespread viewing, so one has to be reasonably satisfied as to its utility and safety. When the quoted charge is ~13% higher than that from the powder factory for a similar bullet and the resulting MV exceeds that of quoted results from equivalent powders from other sources, alarm bells have got to ring.     

 

 

[Nick 53]

I’ve always used conservatives loads as I don’t want to burn my barrel out . Some of these MV are insane. I wonder weather it’s worth all this MV when the price of Barrels can be pricey.

or am I missing something?

[The Gun Pimp]

So Nick - if you found a hot load that would guarantee you a win - you wouldn't use it because it knocked 10% off your barrel life?  Get real - the rest of us are using hot loads!

 

[Scotch_egg]

Barrels aren’t that prices really. Primers, powder and bullets are pricey. 
 

 

[Laurie]

8 minutes ago, Scotch_egg said:

Barrels aren’t that prices really. Primers, powder and bullets are pricey. 
 

 

 

That rather depends on the cartridge's case capacity to bore ratio, bullet weight and pressure being loaded to. If you assume c. £900 for a new match quality barrel fitted and proofed and barrel accuracy life is 1,000 rounds in a short magnum loaded heavily (not an uncommon life), then each shot costs you 90p in barrel life alone which is pretty significant. However, it makes very little choice to make the outlay to have a competitive long-range F-Class or BR rifle built, then forfeit competitiveness to reduce that cost by even 20% which takes quite a hefty load reduction. Bearing in mind the other costs often involved in high-level shooting - entry fees, travel & accommodation and suchlike, saving barrels might be a very false economy.

It's very well worthwhile considering possible barrel life and replacement costs at the time of rifle purchase and in range use though. In the days when most of us shot 308 Win rifles at large target rings by today's standards and some of the Bisley 'Tigers' stretched barrel life on their back-up/practice rifles to 10,000 rounds, rebarreling wasn't a major ever-present concern, but many people are now buying shooting pieces chambered in cartridges with fairly high case capacity to bore area ratios (mainly 6s and 6.5s), loading them up 'hot' and then putting a lot of ammunition downrange rather quickly in a single range-outing, especially on e-targets. The barrel can as a result need replacing a lot quicker than the owner had ever considered. Free society and free choice and I wouldn't presume to criticise people's choices. All I say is to be aware of the factor. (Or then again, stay ignorant and keep our excellent gunsmiths, many of whom are personal friends, in business!)  

[Scotch_egg]

On 12/30/2022 at 9:38 AM, Laurie said:

 

You do realise Viht's maximum charge of N150 for the nearest equivalent bullets are  around 4gn less. Your charge of 36.4gn actually exceeds Viht's max for the 45gn Sierra SP (35.8gn)! This is a charge that might just be suitable for the higher case-capacity 22-250 Ackley Improved version of the cartridge.

Where have you got this load from? Also, what brass are you loading? (That used in American manuals' pressure gun tested loads is usually Winchester or one of the other American makes which are more often than not thinner walled and higher capacity than European equivalents, thereby reducing pressures / increasing allowable loads.) 

Unfortunately, the American manuals have almost entirely dropped Viht powders in their most recent editions (just in time for the Great US Powder Crisis of 2021-23 which has seen Americans scrambling to find and buy this company's grades, Ha! Ha!).  Over the years, Nosler has managed to squeeze out some of the highest MVs published, but in the current manual, only one load out of ten just achieves 3,800 fps (from a 24-inch barrel) with 55gn bullets and the powder used, Hodgdon CFE-223, is a much higher energy double-based type. The other nine powders max out at 3,598 to 3,747 fps - and they're warm at that.

I just want to comment on this. I have done some load development in a 6mm creedmoor and N150 using viht data. It was WAY under pressure and gave sooth case heads. It looks like they are going conservative with their data. I did put a topic on here but got no feedback. Got lots on the stalking directory. I’ve not managed to get back out with the higher charges yet but I will be going above book loads. 
 

the online viht app doesn’t have Hornady bullets for some reason. I’m using z87gr v-max as per the Hornady varmint ammunition. It’s a shame the “super performance” ammunition doesn’t actually use super performance powder with the recipe on the box like the 6.5 creedmoor ammunition. 

[Scotch_egg]

31 minutes ago, Laurie said:

 

That rather depends on the cartridge's case capacity to bore ratio, bullet weight and pressure being loaded to. If you assume c. £900 for a new match quality barrel fitted and proofed and barrel accuracy life is 1,000 rounds in a short magnum loaded heavily (not an uncommon life), then each shot costs you 90p in barrel life alone which is pretty significant. However, it makes very little choice to make the outlay to have a competitive long-range F-Class or BR rifle built, then forfeit competitiveness to reduce that cost by even 20% which takes quite a hefty load reduction. Bearing in mind the other costs often involved in high-level shooting - entry fees, travel & accommodation and suchlike, saving barrels might be a very false economy.

It's very well worthwhile considering possible barrel life and replacement costs at the time of rifle purchase and in range use though. In the days when most of us shot 308 Win rifles at large target rings by today's standards and some of the Bisley 'Tigers' stretched barrel life on their back-up/practice rifles to 10,000 rounds, rebarreling wasn't a major ever-present concern, but many people are now buying shooting pieces chambered in cartridges with fairly high case capacity to bore area ratios (mainly 6s and 6.5s), loading them up 'hot' and then putting a lot of ammunition downrange rather quickly in a single range-outing, especially on e-targets. The barrel can as a result need replacing a lot quicker than the owner had ever considered. Free society and free choice and I wouldn't presume to criticise people's choices. All I say is to be aware of the factor. (Or then again, stay ignorant and keep our excellent gunsmiths, many of whom are personal friends, in business!)  

I went with 6mmbr with my first custom rifle 31gr of varget under an 87gr v-max for 3100fps. 

On 12/30/2022 at 9:38 AM, Laurie said:

 

You do realise Viht's maximum charge of N150 for the nearest equivalent bullets are  around 4gn less. Your charge of 36.4gn actually exceeds Viht's max for the 45gn Sierra SP (35.8gn)! This is a charge that might just be suitable for the higher case-capacity 22-250 Ackley Improved version of the cartridge.

Where have you got this load from? Also, what brass are you loading? (That used in American manuals' pressure gun tested loads is usually Winchester or one of the other American makes which are more often than not thinner walled and higher capacity than European equivalents, thereby reducing pressures / increasing allowable loads.) 

Unfortunately, the American manuals have almost entirely dropped Viht powders in their most recent editions (just in time for the Great US Powder Crisis of 2021-23 which has seen Americans scrambling to find and buy this company's grades, Ha! Ha!).  Over the years, Nosler has managed to squeeze out some of the highest MVs published, but in the current manual, only one load out of ten just achieves 3,800 fps (from a 24-inch barrel) with 55gn bullets and the powder used, Hodgdon CFE-223, is a much higher energy double-based type. The other nine powders max out at 3,598 to 3,747 fps - and they're warm at that.

I went with a 6mmbr for my first custom. A truly efficient cartridge. 3100fps for 31gr Varget under an 87gr V-max and a 26” barrel. 
 

I’m hoping to get 3100fps with the same bullet out of the 6mm creedmoor and a 20” barrel and 40+ grains of powder by the looks of it. 
 

No free lunch as the saying goes. 
 

Back to the OP, you could try adjusting seating depths but to be honest I haven’t a clue. I’ve always gone SAAMI spec and been lucky. Either that or what fits in the mag. You’ll know if have gone back too far as the bullit will fall into the case 🤣🤣🤣

 

 

[Nick 53]

2 hours ago, The Gun Pimp said:

So Nick - if you found a hot load that would guarantee you a win - you wouldn't use it because it knocked 10% off your barrel life?  Get real - the rest of us are using hot loads!

 

Something to think about!