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22lr long range accuracy


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4 minutes ago, 1066 said:

This is, of course, where tuners should earn their keep, to compensate for vertical dispersion at a given distance. I feel there's a lot more methodical research needed to produce repeatable results.

The vertical dispersion is through the velocity variations within your shots.... Tuners won't have any effect on that !

OSOK

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19 minutes ago, OSOK said:

The vertical dispersion is through the velocity variations within your shots.... Tuners won't have any effect on that !

OSOK

My understanding is, that exactly what a tuner is designed to do. Provide positive compensation to varying muzzle velocity to reduce vertical stringing.
Here's an interesting study on the subject:

Using barrel vibrations to tune a barrel (geoffrey-kolbe.com)

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http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

 

Excellent link. Finally some numbers to support the empirical evidence that some tuners do work. Having resisted the temptation to invest so far, can any one on here recommend one for a short barrelled(18 inch) Anschutz 1408EDS(Running Boar Rifle repurposed).

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52 minutes ago, fourtyvoats said:

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/rimfire_accuracy/tuning_a_barrel.htm

 

Excellent link. Finally some numbers to support the empirical evidence that some tuners do work. Having resisted the temptation to invest so far, can any one on here recommend one for a short barrelled(18 inch) Anschutz 1408EDS(Running Boar Rifle repurposed).

More information here:

Rifle Barrel Tuner Vibration Analysis (varmintal.com)

and a tuner coupled with a bloop tube.
Theory • Starik Shooting

 

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6 hours ago, OSOK said:

The vertical dispersion is through the velocity variations within your shots.... Tuners won't have any effect on that !

OSOK

I can tune both rimfire and CF barrels using a tuner to show vertical groups, horizontal groups and then round groups using ammo with typical variations in velocity.

Velocity variations are irrelevant if you tune a barrel to a fixed distance using the positive compensation method.

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1 hour ago, Big Al said:

I can tune both rimfire and CF barrels using a tuner to show vertical groups, horizontal groups and then round groups using ammo with typical variations in velocity.

Velocity variations are irrelevant if you tune a barrel to a fixed distance using the positive compensation method.

Indeed - Positive (and negative) compensation has been recognized for many years. Quite well explained in "Target Rifle Shooting" by Reynolds and Fulton 1972. Although mostly relating to regulating the service rifle for target shooting, the theory was well understood.

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2 hours ago, Big Al said:

I can tune both rimfire and CF barrels using a tuner to show vertical groups, horizontal groups and then round groups using ammo with typical variations in velocity.

Velocity variations are irrelevant if you tune a barrel to a fixed distance using the positive compensation method.

I wouldn't say that velocity variations were irrelevant, that's clearly not the case.  To make my point if velocity was ±25% then vertical stringing would be grossly exaggerated and no amount of tuning would mask this.

Reading Kolbe's paper carefully, positive compensation (PC) appears to work within a 'bandwidth' of velocity variation.   It seems reasonable to say the closer the velocity variation is managed the less positive compensation is required as every round would tend towards vibrating the same and launch angles would be the same - the real benefit is PC can assist in masking small velocity variations inherent in the manufacture of ammunition.

Surely the tuning of CF ammo to the rifle is achieving the same PC benefit with the natural barrel harmonics,  a tuner could help tweak the grouping when temperature changes or fouling affects MV and therefor muzzle vibration.

It does suggest that developing loads for different distances for none barrel tuner rifles would show benefits.

My concern is being able to discern what's actually making my grouping variations as so many variables are in play.

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8 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

I wouldn't say that velocity variations were irrelevant, that's clearly not the case.  To make my point if velocity was ±25% then vertical stringing would be grossly exaggerated and no amount of tuning would mask this.

 

Where do we ever get a 25% variation in MV? thats just not a realistic arguement. Some LR shooters will tell you ES needs to be in single digits or your screwed, thats correct if you have developed you load outside of the PC method.

Tuning using PC means the slow ones come out of the barrel at a higher position in its swing and the fast ones come out sooner/lower in the swing, however they all converge on the target in the same place from a vertical perspective at the tuning distance but only this distance, no other. These micro trajectory differences are real and work if you know what you are doing. PC is used by many of the best LRBR shooters in the world at both 600 & 1000yds

I have tuned my LRBR gun with zero regard to ES and SD using PC and had no vertical troubles at all even with an ES of 40fps. People who dont understand PC tell me you cant get so little vertical with a big ES yet I was doing it consistently and winning. I would say on average 20-25fps would be my ES yet I was shooting verticals that couldnt happen if the tuning was done not using PC, I think my worst was 40fps and still won.

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35 minutes ago, Big Al said:

Where do we ever get a 25% variation in MV? thats just not a realistic arguement. Some LR shooters will tell you ES needs to be in single digits or your screwed, thats correct if you have developed you load outside of the PC method.

Tuning using PC means the slow ones come out of the barrel at a higher position in its swing and the fast ones come out sooner/lower in the swing, however they all converge on the target in the same place from a vertical perspective at the tuning distance but only this distance, no other. These micro trajectory differences are real and work if you know what you are doing. PC is used by many of the best LRBR shooters in the world at both 600 & 1000yds

I have tuned my LRBR gun with zero regard to ES and SD using PC and had no vertical troubles at all even with an ES of 40fps. People who dont understand PC tell me you cant get so little vertical with a big ES yet I was doing it consistently and winning. I would say on average 20-25fps would be my ES yet I was shooting verticals that couldnt happen if the tuning was done not using PC, I think my worst was 40fps and still won.

OK, I was just rather clumsily making a point re "irrelevant"  when I think you mean a wider tolerance of velocity can be managed using PC.  I understand the principle and am convinced it's a real thing, but I'd think you would also agree that achieving a tighter tolerance of velocity can only help ?

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52 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

I'd think you would also agree that achieving a tighter tolerance of velocity can only help ?

It makes no difference like I already pointed out. Different speeds lead to consistent micro trajectory differences and at a given distance then all converge to the same vertical position, within normal dispersal parameters of course. Chasing and maintaining low ES/SD figures is a ball ache so why bother when you dont have to? the PC method takes this problem away.

The LRBR world mainly in America can been through this to the point it is now a given. Guys are consistently shooting 1" groups at 1000yds with differences in velocity that simply wouldn't be achievable if the load hadn't been positively compensated.

The difficulty in using PC as a tuning method with CF rifles at long distances is you need the right conditions and also the right kind of range that will allow you to collect useable results and then that load is only going to converge vertically at that distance or thereabouts. My 1000yd load was hopeless at 600yds for example and vice versa.

I was lucky to have access to a good place to shoot and collect my data but even then its a bit of a challenge, I was running a video camera at the target then driving back 1000yds to my firing point, settling myself and then firing. The video then showed me which shots and in turn charge weights were landing where. 

Most people have 100yd or maybe 300yd ranges to develop and test on while the comps are shot at much longer distances so they develop loads differently where ES and SD really matter, FClass is a typical example or most British LRBR shooters. That said the PC boys are leading the field most of the time in LRBR these days.

Rimfire is different because we can shoot indoors or in tunnels. Ive been doing a fair bit of rimfire barrel tuner development lately in a 100yd tunnel range and Im quite surprised at how good my groups are at 100yds, the were never that good when shot outdoors for obvious reasons. Rimfire shooters generally shoot at 25m or 50m indoors and so can use PC easily along with tuners.

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21 minutes ago, Big Al said:

. My 1000yd load was hopeless at 600yds for example and vice versa.

 

Hence, my old Dad, who was a keen traditional Bisley target shooter in the '50-60's had two rifles, his 600 yd rifle was a Fulton regulated Enfield No4 and his 1,000yd rifle was a Mauser action P14. Although all ammunition was "as issued" and no "tuners" at that time it was an established fact that the P14 had PC more suited to the longer ranges.

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This is as far as i can be arsed to reply to this.... Barrel tuners work at getting smaller groups but they can't control the speed at which a bullet is fired . PPC benchrest don't bother with ES's as at the distances they shoot it dosen't matter however ELR which is relative to calibre does . If a sub is shot at ELR distances such as 400 yards plus and you have 30 ft/sec or more 3-5% ES's in your five shots those bullets will never go in the same unless it's by luck in your aiming that's gone in your favour .

I am not talking about getting rid of vertical at 25 or 50 yards because velocities are not causing that .... Mine has no vertical will normally put five through the same hole and i don't mean a big hole at 25 yards and tight clover at 50 but at 440 its between 14 to 17 inches of vertical and 6 to 20 inches of horizontal depending on wind and me .

Oh and there is not one person on this planet that can shoot 1" groups consistently at 1000 yards that's utter shite ! .... Occasionally when a shooter gets his five off in a good condition and those five rounds are matched well which is never known beforehand then he may achive a one off group of similar ............. I'm sure the world record for a five shot group isn't one inch , i don't follow that so i could be wrong .

OSOK

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https://bergerbullets.com/new-1000-yard-world-record-set-with-berger-bullets/

Bit bigger than 1" I think we can agree.  That said the skill of that chap is fantastic.  No barrel tuner used (from my quick Googling).

In my opinion for long range outdoor shooting (what I do) where ammo can be developed for my rifle I see little to be gained from a barrel tuner.  I could be convinced otherwise but as Big Al suggests it's not a practical proposition on a normal gallery range in UK conditions. 

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1 hour ago, OSOK said:

Oh and there is not one person on this planet that can shoot 1" groups consistently at 1000 yards that's utter shite ! .... Occasionally when a shooter gets his five off in a good condition and those five rounds are matched well which is never known beforehand then he may achive a one off group of similar ............. I'm sure the world record for a five shot group isn't one inch , i don't follow that so i could be wrong .

 

If you want to split hairs then the IBS 1000yd light gun five shot world record is 1.087" shot by Mike Wilson.

If you followed the American IBS scene then you would see how many times groups in the 1s are shot at 1000yds and regularly by the same guys, to me that is consistency. Just because you dont believe it it doesnt mean it isnt true, go do some research.

I know guys who have shot over 1000yds in the dark at 3am because there is no wind to gain the best testing results and world records have been broken but weren't verifiable as they weren't shot in competition. These guys arent out there telling lies, just trying to push the boundaries of their chosen sport.

The 600yd world record is an even more impressive 0.282" for 5 shots by Bart Sauter.

It sounds to me like you dont understand positive compensation in relation to CF rifles and what it being done around the world, not talked about but done and measured.

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1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

https://bergerbullets.com/new-1000-yard-world-record-set-with-berger-bullets/

Bit bigger than 1" I think we can agree.  That said the skill of that chap is fantastic.  No barrel tuner used (from my quick Googling).

In my opinion for long range outdoor shooting (what I do) where ammo can be developed for my rifle I see little to be gained from a barrel tuner.  I could be convinced otherwise but as Big Al suggests it's not a practical proposition on a normal gallery range in UK conditions. 

Check out the light gun 5 shot world record, a lot better than the 10 shot one.

I think you may have misunderstood me, Im all for barrel tuners on normal guns being shot over all kinds of ranges.

Ive done enough with them to know they work and the benefits they give but dont confuse tuners with PC, two different ways to skin the cat. Tuners are far more versatile and work at all distances.

 

 

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