Can the Firearms department refuse to issue a temporary S.7 Certificate.??

[chaz]

Hi folks,

Here's my situation.....  I had a letter from my West Mercia Firearms Dept, stating I have to submit my renewal application at least 12 weeks early. Basically they have no staff....

I failed to do this for various valid reasons, but I still gave them "normal" 4 weeks to process my renewal. I have had an email from them, stating that because I did not send my renewal in 12 weeks before my current FAC/SGC runs out, they will refuse to issue me with a temporary S.7 certificate if they can not process my Certificates in time. They went on to say that If they couldn't do it in time, I would have to pay to have my "Guns" lodged at a dealer.

Is it fair/possibly even legal to refuse me a S.7 Temp permit because they don't have the staff to complete it in the usual 4 weeks?

Any constructive advice would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Chaz.

[Dellboy]

essex were requesting renewals up to 18months early

[maximus otter]

“The decision as to whether or not to issue a permit in these circumstances is in law a matter for the discretion of the chief officer of police of the area concerned.”

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/2000/jun/07/firearms-act-1968-issue-of-permits-under

Are you a BASC member? lf so, get on to them ASAP.

maximus otter

[chaz]

That is just ridiculous!! And shows what a general VERY poor service that Force can provide.....

I've just complained to West Mercia Crime Commissioner, and spoke to his "P/A". She said, "It seems quite easy to me. I'll just get them to issue a S.7 notice"   

Fingers crossed.... I was told to call the Firearms Dept in a weeks time for an update... But I'm not holding my breath........

[Re-Pete]

Last autumn, Hampshire sent out my renewal reminder 16 weeks before expiry date, and indicated that if they did not receive my application at least eight weeks before expiry date, and as a result were unable to process it  in time, I will need to lodge firearms etc. with an RFD.

So it SOUNDS that as long as they receive your application at least eight weeks before expiry date, you'll be OK..........they don't actually spell it out, though.

Pete

[chaz]

3 minutes ago, maximus otter said:

“The decision as to whether or not to issue a permit in these circumstances is in law a matter for the discretion of the chief officer of police of the area concerned.”

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/2000/jun/07/firearms-act-1968-issue-of-permits-under

Are you a BASC member? lf so, get on to them ASAP.

maximus otter

Well that kind of statement foo's me over.....

But it really pisses me off, when I have Inside knowledge (Being Ex Police) of the fact that there are only 2 in the office when there used to be around 10!! Even the PC I gave my renewal to by hand to, told me there was only 2 in the firearms office at this time. And sometimes there's nobody!! How does that make it my fault????

[chaz]

6 minutes ago, Re-Pete said:

Last autumn, Hampshire sent out my renewal reminder 16 weeks before expiry date, and indicated that if they did not receive my application at least eight weeks before expiry date, and as a result were unable to process it  in time, I will need to lodge firearms etc. with an RFD.

So it SOUNDS that as long as they receive your application at least eight weeks before expiry date, you'll be OK..........they don't actually spell it out, though.

Pete

That's fair enough.... But If you are away for 3 weeks before you see the letter you're already in trouble..... Then you're under pressure to get your Pest Control jobs up to date so you don't lose them... (Granted not the Dept's fault) Then your Doctor won't see you for a few weeks as it's not a "Medical problem) this puts me back! I even drove the 25 miles to drop it off by hand. And with a covering letter explaining it's only 4 weeks before my current certificates end. And the reason why. They just don't care!! I just got the generic email saying my submission was late 8 weeks late! (and if "they" (which they will) decide to F*** me over, then I bear the cost of lodging my guns at an RFD. How does THEIR problem become mine.... And at cost to me!!!???

[Mattnall]

You should get an automatic extension under section 28B of the 1968 Act, this automatically extends the validity of the certificate for a period of up to 8 weeks.

However, I believe this is only if you have submitted the renewal paperwork at least 8 weeks before expiry. 4 weeks may have been OK in the past but it is a bit short notice even in normal times and may open you up to delays without the automatic extension (as it appears reading above). For some unknown reason the Government Gateway is not responding so I cannot check directly with the Act.

Being away before the letter arrives is no excuse as you already have had almost 5 years notice of the expiry. The FLD do not have to send out renewal letters.

If the date is fast approaching I would find some place to store your firearms in case they try to come and take them. You might be lucky and your FAC turns up in time but be safe just in case. Interestingly s28A(1) of the same act states that the 5 years validity runs from the date the FAC was granted or renewed, so check that if it is delayed - get your money's worth.

[Akeld]

• My reminder was sent 6 months before expiry
• I put my medical form in immediately
• I posted my paperwork 14 weeks before expiry (as I always do)
• My medical form took 16 weeks to complete and was sent in 8 weeks before expiry
• I've just been sent a letter saying my certificates have been extended for 8 weeks

Did your firearms department tell you it would take 4 weeks or is that just what you've come to expect?

[Popsbengo]

.....Being away before the letter arrives is no excuse as you already have had almost 5 years notice of the expiry. The FLD do not have to send out renewal letters....

This is really the nub of it

[Re-Pete]

I'd have thought the expiry date of an FAC is burnt so deeply into the brain of a legal FAC holder that it would transcend any distractions such as holidays, sickness, or "being away when the reminder letter came".............

I know mine is.

Pete

[banus02]

thames valley tell me i need to apply 6 months before the renewal date and not a day before!.the gp letter is valid for 6 months and wont be excepted if the gp signature was before the start of the 6 months date!! so very difficult to arrange. .gp wants 3 months notice and will only sign if and when they have time,cost of £85. its done to try to make any one/every one give up their fac.

[Popsbengo]

10 minutes ago, banus02 said:

 its done to try to make any one/every one give up their fac.

No it isn't, that would require foresight and planning across a wide range of professions,  do you really believe that's likely considering some of those same people are pro-shooting ?   It MAY feel like "they" are out to get us but it's just the usual British administration starved of people and decent management.

[Re-Pete]

The main problem is lack of a national police force, all reading from the same manual.....

Pete

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, Re-Pete said:

The main problem is lack of a national police force, all reading from the same manual.....

Pete

Oo-err not sure that's the answer!  Very dangerous for civil liberties

[Re-Pete]

What civil liberties?  For starters, free speech has gone out the window....

Pete

[newsatten]

Actually i think it is all part of reducing FAC/SC numbers! 

If not by design its definitely having that effect!             Gun Shops are closing as fast as pubs!  

Factor in costs going through the roof, components almost impossible to get, Ranges not accepting clubs its the perfect storm again, 

Pistols went 25 years ago , Target rifles are next! 

Absolutely no one needs a target rifle guys!   

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, newsatten said:

Actually i think it is all part of reducing FAC/SC numbers! 

If not by design its definitely having that effect!             Gun Shops are closing as fast as pubs!  

Factor in costs going through the roof, components almost impossible to get, Ranges not accepting clubs its the perfect storm again, 

Pistols went 25 years ago , Target rifles are next! 

Absolutely no one needs a target rifle guys!   

paranoia, it's not a conspiracy guys !  Gun shops close due to trading conditions, cost of living, inflation etc

Using your logic, sell up now, it's the sensible thing to do before there's no market.

Bull ship

[newsatten]

Sounds like a fabulous idea!

[Roy W]

The death of shooting won't be due to the Police, or the Govt. If you seriously think that either could coordinate a sustained campaign to bring about that result, then you clearly have never worked for the Police or Civil Service!

The death of shooting will be caused by shooters themselves. Gun Clubs and the NRA were, for decades, old boys clubs run for the members and without any desire to grow or promote shooting.

Look at the outrage when the NRA dared to charge people commercial rent rates on caravan plots, accommodation and club houses. You'd have thought the world was ending. The highest profile club house was running on a rent of £11k per annum, in Surrey! You couldn't rent a 10' x 10' office in Surrey for that much. Then there was the fact it was a privately owned members club running as a commercial enterprise, not the historic home of SAS shooting as claimed. 

People slag Andrew Mercer off for what he is doing with the NRA, making out he is some sort of nasty commercial animal. He is actually making the NRA and Bisley a much better place. If you haven't noticed the improvements, then you probably haven't been there lately. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Shooters need to open their eyes, start selling shooting as a desirable sport, support the National Organisations (lots of those slagging the NRA off are neither members, nor use their facilities) , get clubs to actively hold all the guest days they are entitled to have and publicise them in local press. (I wonder how many clubs in the UK use their available guest days each year?)

Take shooting out of the closet, make it socially acceptable and stop bitching about other disciplines. 

The establishment doesn't need to divide and conquer the shooting fraternity, they are doing it themselves..............

 

[Popsbengo]

19 minutes ago, Roy W said:

The death of shooting won't be due to the Police, or the Govt. If you seriously think that either could coordinate a sustained campaign to bring about that result, then you clearly have never worked for the Police or Civil Service!

The death of shooting will be caused by shooters themselves. Gun Clubs and the NRA were, for decades, old boys clubs run for the members and without any desire to grow or promote shooting.

Look at the outrage when the NRA dared to charge people commercial rent rates on caravan plots, accommodation and club houses. You'd have thought the world was ending. The highest profile club house was running on a rent of £11k per annum, in Surrey! You couldn't rent a 10' x 10' office in Surrey for that much. Then there was the fact it was a privately owned members club running as a commercial enterprise, not the historic home of SAS shooting as claimed. 

People slag Andrew Mercer off for what he is doing with the NRA, making out he is some sort of nasty commercial animal. He is actually making the NRA and Bisley a much better place. If you haven't noticed the improvements, then you probably haven't been there lately. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Shooters need to open their eyes, start selling shooting as a desirable sport, support the National Organisations (lots of those slagging the NRA off are neither members, nor use their facilities) , get clubs to actively hold all the guest days they are entitled to have and publicise them in local press. (I wonder how many clubs in the UK use their available guest days each year?)

Take shooting out of the closet, make it socially acceptable and stop bitching about other disciplines. 

The establishment doesn't need to divide and conquer the shooting fraternity, they are doing it themselves..............

 

Well said.  

As regards clubs promoting shooting, we have a steady stream of applicants from our website,  our limiting factor is sufficient training mentors to process them through probation.  The biggest problem facing target shooting I believe is age demographics,  the five clubs I've been active in all have a mean age of > 55,  we get youngsters coming with parents/grandparents but they don't stay as teenagers.  The large majority of my applicants are of the older generations, it's rare to get a 30ish person applying.  One success we can claim is recruiting more women, we've had an encouraging increase all be it from a very low base.

[Roy W]

7 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Well said.  

As regards clubs promoting shooting, we have a steady stream of applicants from our website,  our limiting factor is sufficient training mentors to process them through probation.  The biggest problem facing target shooting I believe is age demographics,  the five clubs I've been active in all have a mean age of > 55,  we get youngsters coming with parents/grandparents but they don't stay as teenagers.  The large majority of my applicants are of the older generations, it's rare to get a 30ish person applying.  One success we can claim is recruiting more women, we've had an encouraging increase all be it from a very low base.

Yep, age is a factor, mainly due to the cost of shooting. I gave up for 20 years due to not being able to afford it, having a young family on a single income. 

That's why the Young Shooters Association and the financial support given by the NRA is a good thing.

Well done on getting females involved, another step towards removing the 'Gentleman's Club' image.

I can't see a solution to the cost issue, other than sticking to small bore.

I often have the same discussion with a shooting friend about the value of our classic rifles and whether there will still be a market in 20-30years time, when nobody under 80 remembers WW2 and the constant presence of war films and cowboy films on the TV, playing 'War' in school playgrounds and being allowed to run round the streets with toy guns, without the fear of an ARV attending!

Shooting definitely has to diversify and factions need to recognise other disciplines and openly support them, even if they don't want to shoot them.

 

 

[Mattnall]

6 hours ago, Roy W said:

Shooters need to open their eyes, start selling shooting as a desirable sport, ...

Well said Roy, the whole thing. And this bit above is the biggest single issue in my mind.

Clubs generally are so very hard to get in to for the non-shooter looking to try. I know nearly all clubs are volunteer run and require members and committee to go out of their way to help newcomers to the sport but this is not happening with any regularity, certainly around my neck of the woods. This is something I have been trying to do for a some years now and finally have been seeing results, in the last 12 months we have managed to get a good few shooters (and many ladies and youngsters) into the sport and many have their FACs and own firearms now too. From the experiences of these newcomers and the stories they tell it appears there are not many clubs out there with open doors or open minds when it comes to accepting new members.

Shooters are their own worst enemies. To make the sport stronger; make it more popular.

[English Rifleman]

I have to agree with the above posts.
It's some of the clubs that are discouraging new shooters.
I have a range new me and i think it's run by its own club.
Its only 50 Mtr but would be perfect for zeroing and other short range practice, But it is impossible to obtain a membership. you HAVE to be invited by one of the existing members, to even be given an application form.
A couple of years ago when i obtained my FAC i was allowed to attend an evening shoot as a guest, but not guaranteed a shoot,  i would be allowed to shoot once all members had had their play.
My Son (33) who had just finished his NRA probation and had been issued his SCC but had not yet received his FAC was refused point blank to even handle a firearm. But he was allowed to watch.
we have never been back nor will i ever try again with this lot of "Old Boys"
So i can see that if you are not dedicated into this, that it would be easy to give up.
Luckily the NRA are very welcoming to new members, Because without the NRA i for one would have struggled to find my way into this sport.

[chaz]

If there's one thing I learnt from being in the Police. You may have a huge pile of paperwork, in order of urgency....

But when It comes down to it, he who shouts loudest gets heard! So I intend to do plenty of that at the right departments.....

And that will not be the Firearms Dept..

Chaz.