Alternatives to RS62 now that supply is going to get sketchy

[VarmLR]

I'm after suggestions for a powder which is still available to replace RS62 for a 6.5CM, bullet weights from 123 to 142gr.  Has anyone had success using N150 or N160 or are there other single base propellants worth considering?

[martin_b]

Whats happened to RS then?  Nothing on the web site i can see.. Or is it another importation issue?

[banus02]

one word: ukraine!

[VarmLR]

The distributor has been reported as stating (mentioned either on this forum or another I frequent) that once current supplies in the UK are used up there may not be any more due in for the next 3 years.  Ukraine indeed being the case.  Production is reportedly being prioritised for there. 

[VarmLR]

Looks as though N150/160 and 550 are the obvious choices but I don't like the idea of using a high energy powder which precludes N550 unless it's not a true double base.  That or load moderately.

[No i deer]

[DaveT]

I use N550 and N560 with 123g and 140g bullets....very happy with results to 100 yds and beyond.

Maybe a tad less barrel life ...who can measure that?

Just ease up on rapid shot strings or maybe try HBN coating.

[Laurie]

2 hours ago, VarmLR said:

I'm after suggestions for a powder which is still available to replace RS62 for a 6.5CM, bullet weights from 123 to 142gr.  Has anyone had success using N150 or N160 or are there other single base propellants worth considering?

 

Have a look at this series which explores Reach-compliant alternatives to H4350, all of which are in your frame:

 

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3624

 

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3657

 

http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=3683

 

I'd recommend Viht N555. Although an N500 series powder, it has a very low 'heat of explosion' rating, lower than two or three N100s in fact. Viht says it developed this grade specifically for the 6.5mm Creedmoor. If you're adamantly set against any nitroglycerin in the mix, then consider N160 or Lovex S065.

(In fact, if you're adamantly set against any nitroglycerin in the mix, you may have problems. Every new powder developed and introduced in recent years is double-based.)

N150 and N550 are considerably faster burning than N555/N160/N560, RS62, Alliant Re16, the 4350s etc.

 

 

[Nick 53]

Is RS62 equivalent to viht 165 ? Thanks nick 

[Laurie]

32 minutes ago, Nick 53 said:

Is RS62 equivalent to viht 165 ? Thanks nick 

Nowhere near. N165 is considerably slower burning. You'd not get enough into a Creedmoor case to achieve sufficient pressure for a consistent burn.

All of the UK available Reach-compliant powders in the H4350 class (the original and many across the pond still believe the best propellant for this cartridge) are in those three articles I put the links up for. (Note that since then, RUAG Ammotec UK has withdrawn the two Norma contenders, URP and N204.)

[VarmLR]

Many thanks Laurie, very useful.  It seems that if I go the N555 route, and keep loads moderate, it may not be as barrel burning as loading N150/160 in full case loads.  I note your reservations (in .308 anyway) using SR brass.  Do you know if this is also true of SR CM brass?  It seems that N160 and N555 would be my two best options.  I am unsure of current availability of RL16 otherwise that would be a contender too.

The only issue with powders presently is supply.  We know the story with RS, but Vhit supply is also starting to get sketchy as are some others, so I guess we are stuck with what we can get.

 

Primer availability is also getting very sketchy and I'me amazed at price hikes!  For example, 1000 CCI450's are now £147!!!  This price is reportedly set to rise too...

[Laurie]

You can wear a barrel out in short order with nearly any powder. There are a handful of known 'cool burners' around such as Hodgdon H1000 and more use to us, Viht N165, but most grades are close to 4,000 J/g energy these days whether single or double based. Load these up to absolute max pressures and barrel life is reduced, fact of life.

The trend in recent years, factory as well as handloading, has been ever-higher performance. This always has a cost. The only reliable way to obtain very long barrel life is to choose a low expansion ratio design in the first place, load it mild, then shoot very slowly to keep throat area heating down. Few people really want to shoot .30-30WCF on Stickledown though!

Peak pressure really is key in this. Most people load 6.5X55mm mild for instance, and in this form it gives a far longer barrel life than 260 Rem or 6.5mm Creedmoor despite their having a lower expansion ratio value. Go to a smaller case design, eg 6.5mm Grendel, running at maximum 55,000 psi and many will never wear the barrel out. (US 6.5G AR-15 shooters report 9-10,000 round barrel life - and I bet they don't shoot slowly in that platform with the gas-operation working!) You often pay dearly for that last 100 fps, even sometimes 50 fps MV in Creedmoor / 308 Win size cased designs. Conversely, many people knowingly choose the high performance / reduced barrel life route for perfectly sensible reasons in their situations. Others want to have their cake and eat it - and that's not an option! 

Kept to sensible pressures in a suitable application, N555 should give perfectly acceptable barrel life, likely 'good' life IMO. Alliant Re16 by contrast is a hot number that like the RS 'EI' powders gives very high MVs at peak loadings. No free lunches! Sometimes the hotter Viht N500s perform well at lower than normal pressures. I have a 223 Rem N550 short-range match load with 77s that sees 2,931 fps from a 30-inch barrel. If QuickLOAD is correct, this is achieved at only 47,000 psi. In theory, that load should see better barrel life than N135 or N140 at the same MVs. This combination so far seems stable - the usual problem with such mixes is inconsistent performance as such powders often need higher pressures be in their comfort zones.

On small primer / small flash-hole brass, there is a school of thought that says that it only works well up to 6.5X47L cases and charge weights. I would have disputed that at one time, now I'm not so sure. Certainly, large primer works with every powder; small primer also maybe so, but then again maybe not. SP has an overriding plus for many that they can serially 'load hot' and get away with it. I have a strong suspicion that if some people were to learn their actual chamber pressures, they might get a nasty shock. Increasingly, I reckon LP is better in this respect - if your load blows a primer, then that tells you something obvious that only a fool will ignore. More subtly, if you get four or five LP case loadings from a strong make like Lapua and your primer pockets loosen, you know you're running close to comfortable limits and can stick there or drop to the node below. SP tells you nothing until you hit proof pressures plus! 

[VarmLR]

Thanks Laurie, all noted.  I don't need high MV's, perhaps 2650fps for my 139's which is a good accuracy node for my 24 inch CM rifle barrel, ditto around 2630fps for the 140 SST/ELDX's works well.  I'm able to achieve that at moderate loads in SR brass at 43.7gr,  equivalent in LR to approximately 42 gr RS62. N555 therefore seems ideal, so thank you for your learned insights as usual.

[VarmLR]

several tubs of N155 obtained.  I'll start low and find how a few at some moderate steps shoot.  Vhit data with SRP  brass/magnum primers is showing a start load of 37.3 and a max load of 42gr which I'll not be working up to.

Vhit start velocities are 2415 to a max of 2651.  These loads are about a grain lighter than equivalent velocities for my rifle using RS62.  GRT is showing considerably higher velocities for these loads with my rifle data and bullet details entered.  I know that I have an accuracy node at 2640fps using RS62 and GRT calculates an OBT node at a load of  41.4gr for a pressure of 50,189PSI for an MV of 2,647 fps.  I'll try a batch with that as the max load and start at around 39gr and work up in 0.3gr intervals to get the MVs which I can then use to true the GRT tool and look for a node with pressures well within max.  N555 looks to develop good MVs with very moderate pressures, lower than RS62 for equivalent MVs.

 

Speaking with Matt at HPS today, he confirms that RS will be unobtainable for the foreseeable, whilst Vhit is now only available in retail tubs (ie no  more bulk supplies) but at least it's obtainable.  The real problem will be projectiles going forward.

[Montey]

I have a large Amoy of RL 26 for my 300wsm Fopen pushing 115 hi Breda and now 208 hi breads any starting loads ?

the RL 23 for my 7-270 WST some 184g then 180g any starter loads please 

I will talk to people in the league I shoot with as well 

no i dear any advice please ? Not been out this year saving what I’ve got for the euros mate

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Montey]

Dam spot the mistake 

215 high Breda !!

[No i deer]

Hi Rich..

Not familiar with Reloader 23..

I use H1000 in my 7mm 270 and N165 in my saum