Budget F T/R scope suggestions

[Fox Tales]

 As per the title.  My 14 year old daughter is showing some real ability and as such I'd like to support her in this . A friend has found a 223 target rifle and we are waiting for my FAC with variation to return . 

 Since I'm not a target shooter , I'm seeking advice as to what to look for , what to avoid , suitable mag' range and so on . I have a Sightron Siii 6-24x50 I can press into action and the possibility of a second hand NF NXS 8-32 . In real terms we're probably looking at good second hand . She's likely to be shooting out to 600 yards .

 

 Thanks in advance. 

 

 

[furrybean]

Sightron 8-32 is a good entry scope or NF Benchrest

[Deserttech Europe]

HI, that's fantastic news that your daughter is enjoying the sport. A friend of ours is just back from the South African open where his 13 year old daughter took gold in a stage beating everybody, we are all super proud of her.

I don't want to piss on your chips, but don't want you wasting money either. A .223 can be competitive but it needs a very fast twist barrel, the correct throat and carefully loaded ammo. In addition you mention a "target" rifle, if this is a TR style rifle (shot from a sling) then it may not be suitable to take either the scope or the bipod, I would just check on these first.

Other than that I wish her all the best and look forward to seeing her on the point.

 

p.s do you make it to Bisley to shoot, if so let us know and we can try and organise for some other youngsters to be about in order to make her feel as welcome as possible.

 

Ewen

[Fox Tales]

30 minutes ago, Deserttech Europe said:

HI, that's fantastic news that your daughter is enjoying the sport. A friend of ours is just back from the South African open where his 13 year old daughter took gold in a stage beating everybody, we are all super proud of her.

I don't want to piss on your chips, but don't want you wasting money either. A .223 can be competitive but it needs a very fast twist barrel, the correct throat and carefully loaded ammo. In addition you mention a "target" rifle, if this is a TR style rifle (shot from a sling) then it may not be suitable to take either the scope or the bipod, I would just check on these first.

Other than that I wish her all the best and look forward to seeing her on the point.

 

p.s do you make it to Bisley to shoot, if so let us know and we can try and organise for some other youngsters to be about in order to make her feel as welcome as possible.

 

Ewen

 Thanks , the rifle requires a picatinny rail which I have sourced and has a 26" , 1 in 7.5 krieger barrel with an Anschutz rail fitted  . Apparently , it shoots 80grain vld very well . I'll be handloading so no problem there as I already have the components . 

 Bisley seems way off at the moment, but who knows. 

 Cheers 

 

 

[Leeman]

Sightron 8-32 as Furrybean suggested or any Nightforce with 32+ on the top end, they tend to hold value better than Sightron which may be useful if you the kind that likes to trade up.    I wouldn't personally go below 32 power whatever you choose and also fixed powers may be an option if you are struggling to make weight for F/TR.    I use the NSX 12- 42 but it hardly ever gets used below 42x, even in heavy mirage

[Kipper]

I also agree, don't waste cash on a 223. I got my 12yr old son a 223 last year and he's already shooting my 308.

Sightron are awesome, I sold my NF comp to fund a S3 and other parts and don't miss my NF except the reticle.

[Fox Tales]

11 hours ago, Kipper said:

I also agree, don't waste cash on a 223. I got my 12yr old son a 223 last year and he's already shooting my 308.

Sightron are awesome, I sold my NF comp to fund a S3 and other parts and don't miss my NF except the reticle.

 Fantastic to see youngsters getting into shooting . 

 I'll be sticking with the . 223 , frankly it was a bargain and if my daughter sticks at it , I'll look to step up then . Big plus is the fact that I already have 200 lapua cases and the rifle comes with 400 bullets . Since I already possess appropriate powder and primers a little reloading and load development , we're on our way .

 The big issue is an appropriate,  budget friendly scope .

Considering, second hand Sightron Siii 10-50 power or what appears to be a rebounded Sightron, Falcon ? 

Am I in the right ball park ? 

 FT

[Triffid]

Watch how much elevation each scope provides. The Falcon X50 only has 50MoA, which will certainly mean you'll need a 20MoA rail or rings, and probably mean using the reticle to aim-off at longer distances. If you can get the Berger 80gr VLD up to 2700 fps, you'll need about 40MoA adjustment in the scope to get them on target 1000X, which means a scope with at least 80MoA if you're mounting it flat. The Sightron S3's have 70MoA. 

If it's useful, I've attached a spreadsheet I developed to compare the specs of many decent scopes I was looking at last year.

Triffid

Glass.xlsx

[Fox Tales]

2 hours ago, Triffid said:

Watch how much elevation each scope provides. The Falcon X50 only has 50MoA, which will certainly mean you'll need a 20MoA rail or rings, and probably mean using the reticle to aim-off at longer distances. If you can get the Berger 80gr VLD up to 2700 fps, you'll need about 40MoA adjustment in the scope to get them on target 1000X, which means a scope with at least 80MoA if you're mounting it flat. The Sightron S3's have 70MoA. 

If it's useful, I've attached a spreadsheet I developed to compare the specs of many decent scopes I was looking at last year.

Triffid

Glass.xlsx 23.25 kB · 1 download

 Thankyou and well spotted , I hadn't noticed the difference in available adjustment . 

I've also had a look at your spreadsheet and the Sightron is looking quite favourable.  If needed I can always buy a 20 MOA mount at a later date . 

 For the time being she'll be shooting 300 at the club and progressing to 600 at a nearby facility. 

[Triffid]

I've been running two Sightron S3 8-32's for the last five years or more years, one on a 308 and the other on a 6.5CM. They are great mid-range scopes that didn't cost the earth. To my eye the glass is better than any of the other mid-range offerings I've looked through (mostly Vortex's), but noticeably not as good as the S&B PM2, March FX and IOR scopes when I did a back-to-back test. They have their quirks though, particularly the turret and turret stub markings, but I fixed these with 'wraps'.

However the 70MoA internal adjustment isn't enough for me as I'd like to try getting out to 1-mile, even sitting on a 20MoA rail. Both mine have the LR Dot reticle, which is brilliant for know distances at Bisley, but not so useful for aiming off. So they are being upgraded, one to a Kahles 6-24 and the other to a Delta Stryker 5-50, each out-performing the Sightrons, but costing considerably more.

Your Sightron 6-24 actually sounds perfect. They have 100MoA internal adjustment (as opposed to the 8-32's 70), so you should be good out to longer ranges. Personally I like to shoot at about 18x magnification anyway, easier to pick up the target and see what the wind's doing. 

Triffid

 

[Laurie]

25 minutes ago, Triffid said:

Your Sightron 6-24 actually sounds perfect. They have 100MoA internal adjustment (as opposed to the 8-32's 70), so you should be good out to longer ranges. Personally I like to shoot at about 18x magnification anyway, easier to pick up the target and see what the wind's doing. 

 

Most people really whack the magnification setting up in F-Class/FTR, but you don't have to to do well. Russell Simmonds who has been both GB F/TR league champion and World Champion (twice I think) used to shoot with his scope set at around 18-power to give a wider field of view. Until electronic targets appeared, I'd set my Sightrons (I have five 8-32X56 Series IIIs and an SII fixed power BR scope) for a tad higher, 22-24 power, and that still let me see the target on either side with minimal rifle panning to see how my neighbours' latest shots had reacted to any wind change. With Shot Marker scoring, there's no benefit now but I still don't necessarily use the max 32 setting, never mind the >50X settings many people feel that have to shoot at. Some people do better at very high mags, but not everybody.

I'd start her off with the 6-24 Sightron and see how she gets on with it.

I'm amused by the 'mouse gun' warnings. Apart from my having been the sole GB F/TR League competitor to seriously use 223 (and make 7th GB league championship place in 2011), what you and your daughter are doing is the norm in US F/TR club shooting, and far from everyone then having to 'trade up' to 308, it's often the case that Junior outshoots Dad who then starts to 'borrow' Junior's rifle before having an out & out long-range match example built for himself. 223, even with 90s, can't match (heavily loaded) 308's external ballistics these days with the Berger 200.20X for 800 yards and beyond, but can still do very well at 200-600, although a lot depends on how 'tricky' winds are on the range(s) in question. However, the 223 is so easy to shoot in an F/TR weight rifle, it's ideal for tyros especially lightly built ladies and youths, and lets them concentrate on rifle hold, steady aim, trigger control and wind reading. So many people who jump straight into shooting 308 with heavy loads under 185s and 200s spend their first year of competitive shooting trying to get the rifle/bipod to track correctly and overcome 'bipod-hop'.   

[Fox Tales]

Laurie,  Triffid, thankyou.  

 Reassuring,  thankyou.  My daughter is quite comfortable using the Sightron out to 300 . She does seem to like it wound up though . 

[nCognitos]

My daughter started when she was 14 the minimum Bisley age, she is 15 now and quite slight in build.  She shoots about twice a month at gallery, 100yds, 200yds, 300yds and 300 McQueens with a .223 and factory 55gr Magtech ammunition.  As well as shooting with the club, of which she is a probationary member, I have booked a half-day electronic target through the club so we could go down with a picnic and shoot but she much prefers the club atmosphere with all the people milling around, despite the fact she has her head buried in her phone, she enjoys the company.  When its just the two of us, I think she feels obliged to make conversation, in a group, there is always someone else for me to talk to!  She has particularly taken to the McQueens, having shot it twice and wants to do more.  Up to now, we have focussed on safety, as far as the shooting goes it's point at the middle and pull the trigger.  As she is getting more comfortable I have started introducing the fundamentals of marksmanship, though we are only up to position and breathing.  We pay our £5 every trip to Bisley and spend 20 minutes on the zero range working on MOA adjustments, she cleans her own gun and has just reloaded her first batch of 100 rounds of 69gr, under supervision.  The only bit I didn't let her do is the case cleaning as I don't want her exposed to all that yuck just yet, everything else she did.

I found a pre-loved Howa 1500, 1 in 9 twist barrel in a GRS Berserk stock with moderator at a very reasonable price (£550), the scope on top is an Athlon Argos BTR Gen 2 6-24 x 50 and it works just fine, though it's not my favourite value scope. 

We tried it out to 600yds and while she was hitting the right spot, (we checked by firing into the sand), the electronic target was only registering occasional shots, the NRA chap said this was because of the light heads, they register just fine on targets up to 300yds.  We have some 69gr heads loaded to try at 600yds on Saturday, my friend with the same rifle uses 75gr heads beyond 600yds but I think that would be the very limit for this rifle.

She has just chosen a Bergara 6.5 CM for use at 600yds and beyond, which I picked up on Friday, at the moment it has a Hawke 6-32 x 56 Sidewinder on it, but because of her build, she wants to shoot with the .223 as much as possible, she can shoot that all day, with the larger calibres she has to put on a shoulder pad and she wants to stop after 2 x 10 round details.  So far, she has used .223, .308, .22, .357, .44, Saturday will be her first go with the 6.5 CM.  I'm glad that she joined the club, as well as the structured probationary and zeroing course, it's a requirement that she shoots gallery, standing, prone, bench 100yds, 300yds, 300 McQueens and 600yds and of course, she gets to try all the club guns.  Her probationary class have all passed through, I'm stretching out her time to finish with the next class so she gets more trigger time and more practice.

Oddly enough, I gave up hunting and stalking when she was born, now she wants to stalk.  I'm arranging for her to accompany a local stalker, if she can cope with the gore, then the .223 might get traded up to a .243.  I took her along to a Target-F/TR club I was thinking of joining but she wasn't that impressed, I think her future is probably towards Civilian Service Rifle and the semi-auto gallery competitions, but the important thing to let her have a go at everything and then decide.  My own interests are long range rimfire and historic service rifle, I also hope to get back into target rifle, so we don't overlap, she has no interest in even shouldering a .303 or 7.5.

As you can tell, these are both very budget scopes, I will have to report back on the Hawkes performance on the 6.5 CM but I have an even cheaper Hawke Vantage on my 7.5x 55 and it has stood up to hundreds of rounds without issue.  I used the Athlon for load development on my .303 and it didn't have any problems with that.  I save my good glass for long distance rimfire, where I need 100MOA+ of adjustment, so the scopes she is using are my cast offs.

If she develops her strength and takes to the 6.5, then I will look at better glass in due course.  I have my eye on an IoR myself so she may well get another cast off, (Delta Stryker 5-50).

Anyway, if you have something lying around use that, the Sightron will be fine, otherwise there are a lot of mid-range scopes with good enough glass, and with little or no CA, assuming you are not shooting at dawn or dusk.  In order of recommendation from worst to best of the cheaper £300 - £1,500 scopes I have used, last is Athlon, then Discovery, Hawke, Vortex and top of the pile Delta.  The Delta is extraordinarily good value, I have a fixed mag Zeiss and the Delta is the match of it.  I would definitely make it variable to at least x20 and FFP removes a complication, though my daughter eventually got her head around SFP.

Good luck, my girl and I have always got on but having a shared hobby has brought us closer, which is really important at that age when the tendency is to drift apart.  Photo 1 is her at 100yds with a club .223, photo 2 is a .44 lever on gallery, note the extra padding required for the .44!

 

[Triffid]

What a great story!

My two girls (11 & 😎 have shown little interest so far, but I live in hope. In the meantime I'm teaching various youngsters to shoot, either in the Scouts or as Junior members of my Club.

Incidentally the 14 years age limit at Bisley is not set in stone. The NRA may allow younger shooters is the right controls are in place.

Triffid  

[nCognitos]

1 hour ago, Triffid said:

What a great story!

My two girls (11 & 😎 have shown little interest so far, but I live in hope. In the meantime I'm teaching various youngsters to shoot, either in the Scouts or as Junior members of my Club.

Incidentally the 14 years age limit at Bisley is not set in stone. The NRA may allow younger shooters is the right controls are in place.

Your girls are probably a bit young, give them a few years until they want to start doing adult things, my daughter showed no interest until suddenly one day she did!

I have heard of kids down to 9 or 10 shooting under special supervision but not seen it.  I think 14 was the right age for her, she wanted to do it, it's the minimum age to join the club and she was just emerging from her tomboy phase into nail varnish and lipstick, so taking an interest in grown up things.  I still think she's a bit immature but the good thing about her being in the club is that I was told to stop hovering at her shoulder and back off, so she could learn the same as everyone else.  Probably the best bit of advice for both of us.

[Fox Tales]

16 hours ago, nCognitos said:

My daughter started when she was 14 the minimum Bisley age, she is 15 now and quite slight in build.  She shoots about twice a month at gallery, 100yds, 200yds, 300yds and 300 McQueens with a .223 and factory 55gr Magtech ammunition.  As well as shooting with the club, of which she is a probationary member, I have booked a half-day electronic target through the club so we could go down with a picnic and shoot but she much prefers the club atmosphere with all the people milling around, despite the fact she has her head buried in her phone, she enjoys the company.  When its just the two of us, I think she feels obliged to make conversation, in a group, there is always someone else for me to talk to!  She has particularly taken to the McQueens, having shot it twice and wants to do more.  Up to now, we have focussed on safety, as far as the shooting goes it's point at the middle and pull the trigger.  As she is getting more comfortable I have started introducing the fundamentals of marksmanship, though we are only up to position and breathing.  We pay our £5 every trip to Bisley and spend 20 minutes on the zero range working on MOA adjustments, she cleans her own gun and has just reloaded her first batch of 100 rounds of 69gr, under supervision.  The only bit I didn't let her do is the case cleaning as I don't want her exposed to all that yuck just yet, everything else she did.

I found a pre-loved Howa 1500, 1 in 9 twist barrel in a GRS Berserk stock with moderator at a very reasonable price (£550), the scope on top is an Athlon Argos BTR Gen 2 6-24 x 50 and it works just fine, though it's not my favourite value scope. 

We tried it out to 600yds and while she was hitting the right spot, (we checked by firing into the sand), the electronic target was only registering occasional shots, the NRA chap said this was because of the light heads, they register just fine on targets up to 300yds.  We have some 69gr heads loaded to try at 600yds on Saturday, my friend with the same rifle uses 75gr heads beyond 600yds but I think that would be the very limit for this rifle.

She has just chosen a Bergara 6.5 CM for use at 600yds and beyond, which I picked up on Friday, at the moment it has a Hawke 6-32 x 56 Sidewinder on it, but because of her build, she wants to shoot with the .223 as much as possible, she can shoot that all day, with the larger calibres she has to put on a shoulder pad and she wants to stop after 2 x 10 round details.  So far, she has used .223, .308, .22, .357, .44, Saturday will be her first go with the 6.5 CM.  I'm glad that she joined the club, as well as the structured probationary and zeroing course, it's a requirement that she shoots gallery, standing, prone, bench 100yds, 300yds, 300 McQueens and 600yds and of course, she gets to try all the club guns.  Her probationary class have all passed through, I'm stretching out her time to finish with the next class so she gets more trigger time and more practice.

Oddly enough, I gave up hunting and stalking when she was born, now she wants to stalk.  I'm arranging for her to accompany a local stalker, if she can cope with the gore, then the .223 might get traded up to a .243.  I took her along to a Target-F/TR club I was thinking of joining but she wasn't that impressed, I think her future is probably towards Civilian Service Rifle and the semi-auto gallery competitions, but the important thing to let her have a go at everything and then decide.  My own interests are long range rimfire and historic service rifle, I also hope to get back into target rifle, so we don't overlap, she has no interest in even shouldering a .303 or 7.5.

As you can tell, these are both very budget scopes, I will have to report back on the Hawkes performance on the 6.5 CM but I have an even cheaper Hawke Vantage on my 7.5x 55 and it has stood up to hundreds of rounds without issue.  I used the Athlon for load development on my .303 and it didn't have any problems with that.  I save my good glass for long distance rimfire, where I need 100MOA+ of adjustment, so the scopes she is using are my cast offs.

If she develops her strength and takes to the 6.5, then I will look at better glass in due course.  I have my eye on an IoR myself so she may well get another cast off, (Delta Stryker 5-50).

Anyway, if you have something lying around use that, the Sightron will be fine, otherwise there are a lot of mid-range scopes with good enough glass, and with little or no CA, assuming you are not shooting at dawn or dusk.  In order of recommendation from worst to best of the cheaper £300 - £1,500 scopes I have used, last is Athlon, then Discovery, Hawke, Vortex and top of the pile Delta.  The Delta is extraordinarily good value, I have a fixed mag Zeiss and the Delta is the match of it.  I would definitely make it variable to at least x20 and FFP removes a complication, though my daughter eventually got her head around SFP.

Good luck, my girl and I have always got on but having a shared hobby has brought us closer, which is really important at that age when the tendency is to drift apart.  Photo 1 is her at 100yds with a club .223, photo 2 is a .44 lever on gallery, note the extra padding required for the .44!

 

 Fantastic stuff, my daughter's interest came about as she's started Duke of Edinburgh and wanted a skill.  She initially wanted to do clay shooting but changed her mind when I suggested joining a local rifle club together . She's not one to go with the crowd. 

 She's presently shooting my foxing rig and doing very well in a short space of time . Little by little. 

 So now we're looking at putting together a rig for her , a friend sourced a BSA CFT with a Krieger 26" barrel ,olden and golden , which is on hold with an RFD . My FAC is due back with a variation this week.. I've  also found a picatinny rail that should fit the  dovetails on the rifle .

 Thanks to the advice received on the forum , choosing a scope has been made easy and by chance a nice , second hand Sightron will soon be on its way at a very reasonable price. Just a bipod to source and she's ready to go .

 Of course,  I'm not expecting any "thanks" , that would involve speaking . Perhaps she'll text me from her bedroom or possibly a message on WhatsApp . Who knows?  I do know that when she reaches 18 and goes to University her mother and I will miss those two dozen words a week she shares , the silence will be deafening . 🤣

  Joking apart , we're having a great time . I just would like to see some other youngsters at the club .

 Cheers and thanks everyone. 

[nCognitos]

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

Ahh.. daughters, you've got to love them or you would cry!  I'm not sure I'd worry about the lack of youngsters, if your is anything like mine, then she might enjoy the adult environment.  Mine is certainly the youngest by at least ten years + in the club.

Incedentally, I took the pic rail off my CZ and used dovetail rings with the scope, it brought the scope to about 4mm off the barrel, it looked really cool.  From memory the CFT has odd sized rails, so this may not be an option for you.

Don't forget to let her loose with a semi, I've got 3 x 25 round mags for mine but I only give her one, otherwise she would blaze off a brick of ammo in a morning.  It's wonderful when nothing has a cost... 😁

[Mike C]

On 4/13/2022 at 8:07 PM, Fox Tales said:

 Fantastic stuff, my daughter's interest came about as she's started Duke of Edinburgh and wanted a skill.  She initially wanted to do clay shooting but changed her mind when I suggested joining a local rifle club together . She's not one to go with the crowd. 

 She's presently shooting my foxing rig and doing very well in a short space of time . Little by little. 

 So now we're looking at putting together a rig for her , a friend sourced a BSA CFT with a Krieger 26" barrel ,olden and golden , which is on hold with an RFD . My FAC is due back with a variation this week.. I've  also found a picatinny rail that should fit the  dovetails on the rifle .

 Thanks to the advice received on the forum , choosing a scope has been made easy and by chance a nice , second hand Sightron will soon be on its way at a very reasonable price. Just a bipod to source and she's ready to go .

 Of course,  I'm not expecting any "thanks" , that would involve speaking . Perhaps she'll text me from her bedroom or possibly a message on WhatsApp . Who knows?  I do know that when she reaches 18 and goes to University her mother and I will miss those two dozen words a week she shares , the silence will be deafening . 🤣

  Joking apart , we're having a great time . I just would like to see some other youngsters at the club .

 Cheers and thanks everyone. 

Nice to hear your daughter is showing interest and promise in this fantastic sport. 

I introduced my son (12) to my local club (Diggle) late last year, he was a little overwhelmed by it all at first and a bit apprehensive about taking part, especially as there's very few young shooters out there. But thankfully he now enters the F-class comps along with me,  albeit in the F-MIL category at the moment which suits him down to the ground as we use a 6.5 Creedmore with a muzzle break so there's very little recoil.  On his third comp he outshot me and that wasn't a fluke as he did it again at 800yrds a few weeks back.  So it looks like the Creedmore has a new steerer from now on and I'll move over to a  .308 F/TR. 

Going back to your original point about caliber's, I'm also hoping to move him onto F/TR later this year but like yourself, I'm not sure which option to take - .223  or .308. 

Finally, regarding scopes - I have two Sightron SIII, a 8-32 and a 10-50 and I can't fault them for the price. The only niggle I have is with the 10-50, it has a rather stiff zoom but was sorted by sticking a 3D printed throw lever on it.

Hope your daughter loves it 👍       

[MichalS]

Laurie is right, as always. Don't be afraid of .223. It is competitive up to 600m, and if youre lucky with the wind can cause some consternation even at 1000y

Michał