MOD ammo Ban

[newsatten]

Anybody heard anything on this subject?   rumors of the MOD only allowing the use of 5.56 and 7.62 on there ranges for civilians ?? 

i assume its got something to do with the Survey the NRA sent out regarding hand/home loading?................................... 

[Popsbengo]

52 minutes ago, newsatten said:

Anybody heard anything on this subject?   rumors of the MOD only allowing the use of 5.56 and 7.62 on there ranges for civilians ?? 

i assume its got something to do with the Survey the NRA sent out regarding hand/home loading?................................... 

Nothing from the NRA and I would be very surprised if there was such a ruling - DIO know full well the wide selection of calibres used.

There's always been limits to maximum calibres - Kingsbury & Whittington Range Orders ban anything over 9mm so use of .44/.45 etc has been against the rules for many years (and yes I know some clubs have shot such calibres in times past).  I asked Maj Jim Salisbury at Swynnterton some years ago if we could shoot down-loaded .44 on the 1901 & gallery ranges - "absolutely not" was the answer.

I can't see any linkage between the hand loading survey and any such "ban".   2+2 = 22 ?

[One on top of two]

last few ranges I've had we were told buy  landmarc upto .308 was the largest we can use .

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, One on top of two said:

last few ranges I've had we were told buy  landmarc upto .308 was the largest we can use .

Which ranges ?   Landmarc just follow Standing Orders from DIO, your RCO must have read them.  Kingsbury permit .338LM

[One on top of two]

last range was Thetford  in Jan 2022  

[Popsbengo]

2 minutes ago, One on top of two said:

last range was Thetford  in Jan 2022  

Our region is West & Wales so maybe there's a variation in regional SRO.  I'd be inclined to politely enquire of the DIO in that region as to why.

[One on top of two]

Pops , I can remember us all being told that any  7.92 Mauser shooters to leave them at home as they will not be allowed to use them , AFAIK it’s the same for Barton road . 

[Popsbengo]

6 minutes ago, One on top of two said:

Pops , I can remember us all being told that any  7.92 Mauser shooters to leave them at home as they will not be allowed to use them , AFAIK it’s the same for Barton road . 

What a bummer,  illogical on the face of it but who ever thought the Military would/could apply logic ?

[One on top of two]

I will ask some questions on my next range day , our club sec is a very clued up good egg of a chap . 
 

[Geezedtee]

I believe it's more to do with the Range Danger Area (RDA) template being laid out for 7.62mm, than home loads. So a bullet that is greater than 7.62 has not been proven to stay within the RDA if discharged at an angle of 45 degrees, in theory. It is 40 years since I last read a Pam 22, so things may have changed since then. 

[newsatten]

There’s definitely a change regarding hand loads , 

we’ve been checked a couple of time ,

an official had a look at your ammunition 

and expects to see a data tag, bullet weight type powder charge primer and speed, 

only happened at Hythe but I guess Lydd will follow suit soon?

the whole MOD thing is a rumour I’ve heard from someone inside the MOD,

personally nothing theses clowns do would surprise me now ,

 

[Popsbengo]

33 minutes ago, Geezedtee said:

I believe it's more to do with the Range Danger Area (RDA) template being laid out for 7.62mm, than home loads. So a bullet that is greater than 7.62 has not been proven to stay within the RDA if discharged at an angle of 45 degrees, in theory. It is 40 years since I last read a Pam 22, so things may have changed since then. 

A 7.62 bullet shot at 45deg will easily leave a typical LDA gallery range - it's not designed to accommodate an overshoot, it's to contain ricochet rounds.  From the NRA RCO manual:  "For a 600m range, the RDA extends to 1830 beyond the butts - 2430m from the firing line.  A 7.62 bullet discharged at 34deg (the worst case) can travel 4000m."

Hence the infamous car door incident at Kingsbury due to an overshoot (by the Army).

[Geezedtee]

My bad. I've forgotten about gallery range danger areas. Yes a 7.62 fired at 45 degrees will travel 4,000 metres and the local ranges here reflect that by having a RDA that extends to 4k. But, apart from Gallery ranges  there are also Electronic Target ranges with no butts/backstop. 

 

 

 

[Cj10]

.

16 hours ago, One on top of two said:

Pops , I can remember us all being told that any  7.92 Mauser shooters to leave them at home as they will not be allowed to use them , AFAIK it’s the same for Barton road . 

Thetford CGR/ ETR are non HME ranges with a maximum  energy limit of 4500 joules. The RSOs permit calibres up to 308/7.62 including .303 and have been in effect for a number of years. One Landmarc range warden has previously indicated ..303 was excluded under the RSOs but that was quickly resolved. 

Barton Road Is a 7000 joule HME range. The RSOs do not have a calibre limit other than specifically prohibiting the civilian use of 338. 7.92mm may be used on this range, i will caveat this by saying I have not run Barton as a RCO for a few months, but I have not had seen any revised RSOs which revise the above. 

[One on top of two]

9 minutes ago, Cj10 said:

.

Thetford CGR/ ETR are non HME ranges with a maximum  energy limit of 4500 joules. The RSOs permit calibres up to 308/7.62 including .303 and have been in effect for a number of years. One Landmarc range warden has previously indicated ..303 was excluded under the RSOs but that was quickly resolved. 

Barton Road Is a 7000 joule HME range. The RSOs do not have a calibre limit other than specifically prohibiting the civilian use of 338. 7.92mm may be used on this range, i will caveat this by saying I have not run Barton as a RCO for a few months, but I have not had seen any revised RSOs which revise the above. 

👍👍

[RobinC]

The NRA hand load survey is in response to several dangerous incidents at Bisley, and what is becoming apparently well known that people are loading outside of the parameters of manufacturers accepted safe data, some classes are notorious for this.

Have Fun

Robin

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, Cj10 said:

.

Thetford CGR/ ETR are non HME ranges with a maximum  energy limit of 4500 joules. The RSOs permit calibres up to 308/7.62 including .303 and have been in effect for a number of years. One Landmarc range warden has previously indicated ..303 was excluded under the RSOs but that was quickly resolved. 

Barton Road Is a 7000 joule HME range. The RSOs do not have a calibre limit other than specifically prohibiting the civilian use of 338. 7.92mm may be used on this range, i will caveat this by saying I have not run Barton as a RCO for a few months, but I have not had seen any revised RSOs which revise the above. 

👍

[Re-Pete]

There's very little published data for some calibres.  Among others, I shoot 6x47, which I'm told is a "wildcat" calibre, and data is hard to find. Fortunately, I have a good load using an easily obtainable bullet/powder/primer/brass combination, and with a sensible MV. (I wouldn't even contemplate reloading without access to a decent chrony..... )

We had an impromptu check of our MV's carried out by staff at Bisley a couple of years ago (using a Labradar), and it was suggested at the time that this might become a random unannounced procedure, but I've not seen it since.

It could reduce the number of incidents caused by irresponsible reloaders, (the brag "Yeah, it's a stiff load, but OK in my rifle" springs to mind), but then again, no matter how careful/competent a person is, accidents will happen.......

Pete

 

 

[Roy W]

I saw them doing spot checks on Short Siberia last year, so they are doing them

[John MH]

24 minutes ago, Roy W said:

I saw them doing spot checks on Short Siberia last year, so they are doing them

What are they checking?

[Roy W]

26 minutes ago, John MH said:

What are they checking?

They asked for a few rounds of ammo. Said they were going to Chrono it, presumably pull one and weigh the bullet to work out the Muzzle Energy

They are presumably trying to confirm that people aren't breaking the HME rules.

 

[Re-Pete]

In our case, they just set the chrony up next to us, and asked what calibre/bullet weights we were shooting.

Pete

[Popsbengo]

It doesn't take much to go over 4500J if you push a .308 with a long barrel.

for example all at or just over the limit:

.308 eg  155gn doing 3106 f/s

6.5mm eg    140gn doing 3270 f/s

Or 30 cal Mag etc  eg  220gn doing 2610 f/s

I was told by one F Class shooter that "we start load development above published maximums"  Not very clever.

[John MH]

2 hours ago, Roy W said:

They asked for a few rounds of ammo. Said they were going to Chrono it, presumably pull one and weigh the bullet to work out the Muzzle Energy

They are presumably trying to confirm that people aren't breaking the HME rules.

 

Unless they are the agent of an RFD I would suppose they cannot legally take a few rounds off anyone. Firing home loads in any rifle other than the one it was loaded for is also potentially unsafe. Chrono the one it was loaded for would be the way to go.

[Roy W]

I think they get the firer to shoot them through the chrono whilst they are there, otherwise they'd ned all manner of firearms to use.

The NRA is an RFD so they could be acting as servants.

Having spoken to someone who used to shoot F class, he said there are some who put the HME boundaries all the time.

In practical pistol back in the 80's/90's competitors were  'dope tested' during the comps, at random, to check their ammo complied with their claimed 'Major' factor classification.