LOADING CALIBRES NOT ON YOUR LICENSE

[Richiew]

Wouldn’t it be easier not to push the boundaries and only make complete rounds when we need to then lock them away . Only make what’s on your licence. 
K I S S ????

[Mattnall]

1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

The VCR Act 2006 has redefined the law I believe.

Only in regard to buying or attempting to buy.

[Popsbengo]

12 minutes ago, Mattnall said:

Only in regard to buying or attempting to buy.

Maybe.   I think I've exhausted my interest in this now,  people do what they do and courts decide, I know what I'll do and what I'll advise anyone in my club that should ask (unlikely).  As Richiew wrote above,  sound advice.

[Mattnall]

Yes, you're right. I cannot see why anyone on here would have primers or primed cases in their possession without any lawful excuse, it should really be a non-issue for us.

[John_fes]

May be of interest consultation on ammunition components.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/firearms-safety
 

 

[Popsbengo]

16 minutes ago, John_fes said:

May be of interest consultation on ammunition components.

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/firearms-safety
 

 

Yes, it's been discussed a couple of times on here.  Some of us have given feedback.

[chaz]

On 1/22/2022 at 12:34 PM, miki said:

Making ammunition is ilegal, if he does not have authority to posses (section 2 of his FAC).

You missed out the word that counts. "Completed" rounds, not on your ticket are Illegal.

Many powders suit many rounds/calibres, regardless of what your FLO thinks. Even if a "recipe book" states otherwise..... (Most FLO's don't have a clue about reloading anyhow...)

I could buy .50 Cal projectiles and brass all day long, (No powder, no primer). Seat the heads in the brass Polish them up and sell them (as they do) at Gun Fares as souvenirs.....

Only complete viable rounds that are able to be shot that are not on your "ticket" are a criminal offence.

Look at it another way, what can a non Firearm Certificate holder buy without a "Ticket"? Projectiles, (used to be just target bullet heads now both) brass, and powder. I have bought all 3 of these items from RFD's, even one's I've never been into before. The only thing you need to show your "Ticket" for is primers. And I've never had them written on my ticket!

Just to add, I would never condone or try and influence any Certificate holder to do something as stupid as making up rounds they have no authority to make, or even push the limits, by partly doing this!. As you may not be breaking the law at that time. You STILL may find yourself falling under -

The Chief Officer of police may revoke a firearms certificate under Section 30A(2) of the 1968 Act if he has reason to believe: (a) that the holder is of intemperate habits or unsound mind or is otherwise unfit to be entrusted with a firearm; or (b) that the holder can no longer be permitted to have a firearm or ammunition.

Chaz.    

 

 

[chaz]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:29 PM, Richiew said:

Wouldn’t it be easier not to push the boundaries and only make complete rounds when we need to then lock them away . Only make what’s on your licence. 
K I S S ????

Couldn't agree more!

[John_fes]

On 2/7/2022 at 3:19 PM, chaz said:

Look at it another way, what can a non Firearm Certificate holder buy without a "Ticket"? …

 and powder.

I have bought all 3 of these items from RFD's, even one's I've never been into before.

The only thing you need to show your "Ticket" for is primers. And I've never had them written on my ticket!

 

Chaz.    

To acquire smokeless powders you need an explosive licence unless any of the following exemptions apply, so the said RFDs selling without recording the sale of smokeless powders are in breach of the explosive regulations.

To comply with Heath and Safety Explosive Regulations 2014 (2014 No.1638) to acquire smokeless powder the person must be either:-
(1) hold a firearms certificate granted under section 27 of that Act; or
(2) hold a shotgun certificate granted under section 28 of that Act; or
(3) hold a permit granted under section 17 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 or
(4) registered as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the Firearms Act 1968

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, John_fes said:

To acquire smokeless powders you need an explosive licence unless any of the following exemptions apply, so the said RFDs selling without recording the sale of smokeless powders are in breach of the explosive regulations.

To comply with Heath and Safety Explosive Regulations 2014 (2014 No.1638) to acquire smokeless powder the person must be either:-
(1) hold a firearms certificate granted under section 27 of that Act; or
(2) hold a shotgun certificate granted under section 28 of that Act; or
(3) hold a permit granted under section 17 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 or
(4) registered as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the Firearms Act 1968

Please cite your legislation (section/para) for further reading

Addendum:

Schedule 2 Part 2 para 15 does seem to me, as a layman, to support your point.  Interesting.

[John_fes]

14 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

Please cite your legislation (section/para) for further reading

Addendum:

Schedule 2 Part 2 para 15 does seem to me, as a layman, to support your point.  Interesting.

it is within Explosive Regulations 2014

HSE guide at

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l151.htm

Page 45

Schedule 2 Explosives not requiring an explosives certificate.

15 The explosive substance smokeless powder which is,-

(a) assigned in accordance with the United Nations Recommendations the UN no 0161 or 0509 or which has been recovered from ammunition or blank ammunition intended for use in firearms; 
(b) acquired by a person who either is registered as a firearms dealer under section 33 of the Firearms Act 1968 or holds—
(i) a permit granted under section 7 of that Act;
(ii) a firearms certificate granted under section 27 of that Act;
(iii) a shotgun certificate granted under section 28 of that Act; or
(iv) a permit granted under section 17 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act
1988.

**

if none of the above apply then an explosive certificate is required, RFDs should be recording the sale as UN0161 and 0509 are classified as a Relevant Explosive.

more at:
 https://www.hse.gov.uk/explosives/new-regulations.htm

Full legislation at:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1638/made

edit to add, it is the same legislation that sets the limit on quantity that may be stored without an explosive storage licence.

From part 2 of .gov legislation document.

Authorisation to store explosives

7.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), no person may store explosives unless that person holds a licence for their storage and complies with the conditions of that licence.

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply to—

(a)the storage of one or more of the following—

(i)no more than 10 kilograms of shooters’ powder;

(ii)no more than 5 kilograms of—

(aa)shooters’ powder; or

(bb)any hazard type 3 or 4 explosive, or desensitised explosive, which is not a relevant explosive, or a combination of hazard type 3 or 4 explosives, or desensitised explosives, which are not relevant explosives; or

(cc)a combination of shooters’ powder and any hazard type 3 or 4 explosives, or desensitised explosives, which are not relevant explosives;

(iii)no more than 15 kilograms of percussion caps or small arms ammunition or a mixture of them;

 

 

 

 

[VarmLR]

I terms of the OP, The Violent Crime Reduction Act as amended in 2006 does not relate to possession of primers or primed cases, but to the purchase of such.  You have to have lawful reason to purchase primers or primed cases, basically meaning that you should provide and present your FAC at purchase even if nothing is written into it.  It is however illegal under the Firearms Act to possess primed cases for which you have no certificate to cover that calibre/chambering.  It is also illegal under the Act to possess primers without lawful reason.  Pretty clear cut.  The chap referred to by the OP has admitted he's making up primed cases or ammunition for calibres which he does not yet have lawful permission on his certificate.  He is in breach of the act, and by admitting what he's doing publicly may not be holding his FAC for much longer if reported.  In terms of primed cases, the advice from my own FEO was that as soon as they are primed, they are capable of discharge even if no powder or bullets are loaded, so intent is clearly shown and therefore they would, as far as he was concerned, count as "ammunition" under the Act and should be stored as such.  Whether they were counted towards your allocation is debateable since no bullets are loaded but they should be securely stored.  If in doubt, common sense should dictate that acting responsibly is a given.

 

Also, a moot point, but playing devil's advocate for the moment, wouldn't anyone with the knowledge of another who is illegally holding ammunition or firearms be in for a rough ride by the police if later that was discovered?  You can see the case where someone admits to holding rounds they have no permission for and then, however unlikely it may seem, obtains the means to use them and a crime is committed. I think that the police would take a dim view if this was known at the outset and that person wasn't either reported or "given advice" which if he ignores, and is then reported.  I would have thought in these circumstances that it would be in the interests of the club secretary to be brought up to speed as technically, a member of their club is acting illegally which could result in the club itself being suspended pending a full investigation, whether innocent or not.  The police are clamping down hard on such matters these days and it only takes a breach of conditions (allowing someone who is clearly in breach of their conditions to remain at the club) for H/O approval of the club to be rescinded. 

[Miseryguts]

Varm, well said and well argued, this sort of thing on a public forum concerning possible illegal matters does no-one any good.

I would be very surprised if some spook some were is not monitoring all these forums. If not a person, AI is at such a level now that a machine will do it

M (keeping his head down in thundery Monmouthshire)

[Shuggy]

Well said by VarmLR. The shooting community has always been pretty good at weeding out the tiny few that wilfully conduct illegal acts. It does no one any good to look the other way.