LOADING CALIBRES NOT ON YOUR LICENSE

[Dellboy]

If you started loading calibres not on your licence its obviously an offence,

but if you had all the components to reload ,dies heads cases  (and they were not usable with a calibre you did posses ) would it be regarded as an offence ?

[BlueBoy69]

As far as I'm aware it's only assembled ammunition. Ammunition being classed as assembled as soon as a live primer is placed into a case. You can have all the components, just not any assembled (or simply primed) ammunition. Well until the law is changed.

[miki]

No, however your FLO would want to know why you have them.

I had exactly that recently as i'd applied for a .223 I had dies, cases. bullets (I load .22-250) powder and some small primers.
Making up a round would have been an offence but having the components isn't and I had an excuse as I was waiting for the application to be granted.

[Popsbengo]

41 minutes ago, Dellboy said:

If you started loading calibres not on your licence its obviously an offence,

but if you had all the components to reload ,dies heads cases  (and they were not usable with a calibre you did posses ) would it be regarded as an offence ?

A lay opinion:  It's about intent.  If it can be shown you intended to manufacture ammo one doesn't have permission for, then that would be a potential offence I think.  Primers could be the issue if there's no approved calibre that uses what one holds.  That would still be very difficult to prove,  I can explain LRP, SRP, MRP & LPP but not small pistol primers so I could expect a difficult explanation with the police. 

Dies, cases, powder, bullets, - non need an FAC to hold. 

[Dellboy]

so while not illegal  a possible awkward moment with the FLO ?

I  was trying to explain this to a club member who has just put in a variation for a long list of calibres he hasnt currently got  ... but he knows best

he apparently is making full amunition .

[Popsbengo]

2 hours ago, Dellboy said:

so while not illegal  a possible awkward moment with the FLO ?

I  was trying to explain this to a club member who has just put in a variation for a long list of calibres he hasnt currently got  ... but he knows best

he apparently is making full amunition .

A primed case is considered to be a "live round" as Blueboy said above.  If he primes cases he doesn't have permission for then he's breaking the law  - to hold ammo you don't have permission for is a breach of the Act.  A fully assembled round is clearly illegal.

If he's doing so he's a d1ck risking his FAC and worse

[miki]

2 hours ago, Dellboy said:

so while not illegal  a possible awkward moment with the FLO ?

I  was trying to explain this to a club member who has just put in a variation for a long list of calibres he hasnt currently got  ... but he knows best

he apparently is making full amunition .

Making ammunition is ilegal, if he does not have authority to posses (section 2 of his FAC).

[Laurie]

3 hours ago, miki said:

No, however your FLO would want to know why you have them.

I had exactly that recently as i'd applied for a .223 I had dies, cases. bullets (I load .22-250) powder and some small primers.
Making up a round would have been an offence but having the components isn't and I had an excuse as I was waiting for the application to be granted.

 

If you own a historic firearm, such as the 310 Martini Cadets, 450 Martini-Henry and suchlike, you can legally own it as a curio without an FAC. However, if it's discovered that you have the tools and components to load its ammunition, even if the police cannot find a single completed round, the police and courts take this as prima facie evidence of an intention to shoot it, and you're in breach of the Firearms Acts.

This is an area where people have to be careful and be able to show reasonable cause to have these items in their possession.  

[phoenix]

Possession of the materials - cases, primers, powder, bullets, dies etc for cartridges not on your FAC is not illegal.

If you have friends who have rifles chambered in cartridges not on your FAC, but you have the materials and equipment to make those cartridges, then you can invite your friends over and supervise them making the cartridges using your materials and equipment.

You cannot make cartridges for them - they have to do the assembly

Having said all that, enforcement might be an issue for the Police because, unless they walked in on you manufacturing ammunition not on your FAC, it would be difficult to prove who actually assembled the ammo.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[miki]

14 minutes ago, phoenix said:

Possession of the materials - cases, primers, powder, bullets, dies etc for cartridges not on your FAC is not illegal.

If you have friends who have rifles chambered in cartridges not on your FAC, but you have the materials and equipment to make those cartridges, then you can invite your friends over and supervise them making the cartridges using your materials and equipment.

You cannot make cartridges for them - they have to do the assembly

Having said all that, enforcement might be an issue for the Police because, unless they walked in on you manufacturing ammunition not on your FAC, it would be difficult to prove who actually assembled the ammo.

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

 

But if you are alone, with cartridges 'in your possesion' (honestly copper, the owner just left them there and went out for a pizza) then you are in breach of the Act.

If A N Other was there who had authority to posses then the line, "them's his copper, honest" would suffice.

[Mattnall]

Primed cases are not live rounds and are not considered as such (except in a public place without lawful excuse according to case law iirc). Primed cases are to be dealt with in the same way as primers when it comes to buying or selling only but not possession (I think s35 of the VCR Act refers).

Once you make a live round you need authority to possess that calibre/cartridge you've just made.

[BlueBoy69]

56 minutes ago, Mattnall said:

Primed cases are not live rounds and are not considered as such (except in a public place without lawful excuse according to case law iirc). Primed cases are to be dealt with in the same way as primers when it comes to buying or selling only but not possession (I think s35 of the VCR Act refers).

Once you make a live round you need authority to possess that calibre/cartridge you've just made.

Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but a primed case, which isn't for a firearm or ammunition you possess still sounds like an offence to me? The text, from Section 35 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act (link), is below.

(4)It is an offence for a person to buy or to attempt to buy—

• (a)a primer to which this section applies, or
• (b)an empty cartridge case incorporating such a primer,

unless he falls within subsection (5).

(5)A person falls within this subsection if—

• (a)he is a registered firearms dealer;
• (b)he sells by way of any trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases incorporating primers, or both;
• (c)he holds a certificate authorising him to possess a firearm of a relevant kind;
• (d)he holds a certificate authorising him to possess ammunition of a relevant kind;
• (e)he is a person in the service of Her Majesty who is entitled under subsection (6) to acquire a primer to which this section applies;
• (f)he is entitled, by virtue of the 1968 Act, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 or any other enactment and otherwise than by virtue of being a person in the service of Her Majesty, to have possession, without a certificate, of a firearm of a relevant kind or of ammunition of a relevant kind;
• (g)he is in possession of a certificate authorising another person to have possession of such a firearm, or of such ammunition, and has that other person's authority to purchase the primer or empty cartridge case on his behalf; or
• (h)he is authorised by regulations made by the Secretary of State to purchase primers or cartridge cases of the type in question.

 

[Popsbengo]

36 minutes ago, BlueBoy69 said:

Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but a primed case, which isn't for a firearm or ammunition you possess still sounds like an offence to me? The text, from Section 35 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act (link), is below.

(4)It is an offence for a person to buy or to attempt to buy—

• (a)a primer to which this section applies, or
• (b)an empty cartridge case incorporating such a primer,

unless he falls within subsection (5).

(5)A person falls within this subsection if—

• (a)he is a registered firearms dealer;
• (b)he sells by way of any trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases incorporating primers, or both;
• (c)he holds a certificate authorising him to possess a firearm of a relevant kind;
• (d)he holds a certificate authorising him to possess ammunition of a relevant kind;
• (e)he is a person in the service of Her Majesty who is entitled under subsection (6) to acquire a primer to which this section applies;
• (f)he is entitled, by virtue of the 1968 Act, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 or any other enactment and otherwise than by virtue of being a person in the service of Her Majesty, to have possession, without a certificate, of a firearm of a relevant kind or of ammunition of a relevant kind;
• (g)he is in possession of a certificate authorising another person to have possession of such a firearm, or of such ammunition, and has that other person's authority to purchase the primer or empty cartridge case on his behalf; or
• (h)he is authorised by regulations made by the Secretary of State to purchase primers or cartridge cases of the type in question.

 

Exactly.  This is why I said above:  "A primed case is considered to be a "live round" ........ If he primes cases he doesn't have permission for then he's breaking the law  - to hold ammo you don't have permission for is a breach of the Act. ........"

I suppose an argument could be made that 'having' isn't 'buying' but I'd not want to argue that in court especially if I also possessed cases that could be assembled that I didn't have permission for.

[BlueBoy69]

5 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Exactly.  This is why I said above:  "A primed case is considered to be a "live round" ........ If he primes cases he doesn't have permission for then he's breaking the law  - to hold ammo you don't have permission for is a breach of the Act. ........"

Yes, as I said originally; either below or above if you want to scroll upwards.

6 hours ago, BlueBoy69 said:

As far as I'm aware it's only assembled ammunition. Ammunition being classed as assembled as soon as a live primer is placed into a case. You can have all the components, just not any assembled (or simply primed) ammunition. Well until the law is changed.

 

[Popsbengo]

I suspect that just having primers in packaging would be difficult for the Police to prosecute given the simple interchangeability of primer types (yes I know not optimal, but do-able).

A primed case on the other hand could be clear intent to build ammo not approved.

[Popsbengo]

4 minutes ago, BlueBoy69 said:

Yes, as I said originally; either below or above if you want to scroll upwards.

 

yes you did, and I quoted you too!  😁

[mactavish]

2 hours ago, Mattnall said:

Primed cases are not live rounds and are not considered as such (except in a public place without lawful excuse according to case law iirc). Primed cases are to be dealt with in the same way as primers when it comes to buying or selling only but not possession (I think s35 of the VCR Act refers).

Once you make a live round you need authority to possess that calibre/cartridge you've just made.

This is correct.

We can infer this conclusively from Section 35 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act (handy given it's shown above), because both a primer and a primed (otherwise empty) case are both grouped together in the Act with no further distinction or qualification; and therefore neither can be considered live assembled ammunition as we understand it in terms of the 1968 Act, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 (i.e. that which would only be made legally held by virtue of the slots on our FACs). To view it another way; it must follow that because as we all instinctively and correctly know that a primer (of any given flavour) is clearly "NOT" live assembled ammunition, then neither can be a primed (otherwise empty) case (of any given flavour).

 

[Mattnall]

3 hours ago, BlueBoy69 said:

Maybe I'm not understanding it correctly, but a primed case, which isn't for a firearm or ammunition you possess still sounds like an offence to me? The text, from Section 35 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act (link), is below.

(4)It is an offence for a person to buy or to attempt to buy—

• (a)a primer to which this section applies, or
• (b)an empty cartridge case incorporating such a primer,

unless he falls within subsection (5).

(5)A person falls within this subsection if—

• (a)he is a registered firearms dealer;
• (b)he sells by way of any trade or business either primers or empty cartridge cases incorporating primers, or both;
• (c)he holds a certificate authorising him to possess a firearm of a relevant kind;
• (d)he holds a certificate authorising him to possess ammunition of a relevant kind;
• (e)he is a person in the service of Her Majesty who is entitled under subsection (6) to acquire a primer to which this section applies;
• (f)he is entitled, by virtue of the 1968 Act, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 or any other enactment and otherwise than by virtue of being a person in the service of Her Majesty, to have possession, without a certificate, of a firearm of a relevant kind or of ammunition of a relevant kind;
• (g)he is in possession of a certificate authorising another person to have possession of such a firearm, or of such ammunition, and has that other person's authority to purchase the primer or empty cartridge case on his behalf; or
• (h)he is authorised by regulations made by the Secretary of State to purchase primers or cartridge cases of the type in question.

 

The first line of the quoted text from the VCR Act doesn't mention possession at all, only buying or attempting to buy (and I believe later on in the act it mentions the same conditions for selling or attempting to sell).

[Laurie]

'Cadmus' (Colin Greenwood) in the old Guns Review magazine reported on a legal case on this issue back in the 1980s or early 90s that created a legal precedent. An individual with known criminal links and history was caught with primed cases and charged as if he held unauthorised ammunition. His defence in court was that it wasn't assembled ammunition, and in law primed brass was no different from blank ammunition  which had no ownership restrictions. The prosecution succeeded and a subsequent appeal failed.

 

At the time it caused great confusion among both FLOs and FAC holders over storage of primed cases waiting charging and bullet seating, FEOs telling handloaders that all primed brass had to be kept secure in cabinets, no distinction between them and loaded rounds. It was subsequently clarified by Home Office lawyers that FAC holders didn't have to lock their primed brass away. Being in possession without an FAC was a different matter though. AFAIK that legal position survives today which is probably why the VCR Act doesn't comment on it as it would merely be repeating an already accepted legal position.

 

As with so many things though in the firearms acts, I imagine there is a great deal of ambiguity around and wouldn't wish to be the subject of a test prosecution on this matter.   

[mactavish]

29 minutes ago, Laurie said:

"...the VCR Act doesn't comment on it as it would merely be repeating an already accepted legal position..."

To be fair, Laurie, the VCR does mention it (primed empty cases), and that they are grouped similarly with primers. By omission therefore, because it is otherwise prescriptive about primers and primed empty cases, it implies a separate legal distinction for live assembled ammunition.

I'm therefore 100% sure you're right that the legal position clarified by HO lawyers referred to back in the day still prevails today, and my batches of primed empty cases will continue to stay on shelves in my reloading room...

[Laurie]

1 hour ago, mactavish said:

To be fair, Laurie, the VCR does mention it (primed empty cases), and that they are grouped similarly with primers

 

You've misunderstood my attempted emphasis. My point referred to previous posts that state the VCR Act only affects the sale and purchase of primers / primed cases, not possession of same. I think that the previous case and legal precedent had already made possession illegal in certain circumstances, while VCR added new restrictions.

[Popsbengo]

2 hours ago, Laurie said:

 

You've misunderstood my attempted emphasis. My point referred to previous posts that state the VCR Act only affects the sale and purchase of primers / primed cases, not possession of same. I think that the previous case and legal precedent had already made possession illegal in certain circumstances, while VCR added new restrictions.

A point well made - it's also the sensible, self-protecting approach to avoid awkward conversations with the Police (at the very least).

[mactavish]

2 hours ago, Laurie said:

 

You've misunderstood my attempted emphasis. My point referred to previous posts that state the VCR Act only affects the sale and purchase of primers / primed cases, not possession of same. I think that the previous case and legal precedent had already made possession illegal in certain circumstances, while VCR added new restrictions.

Understood. I'd thought, perhaps incorrectly, that you'd missed in the VCR that there exists a prescriptive distinction in law between primed empty cases and live assembled ammunition. (Made fuller in consideration of Chapter 2: Definition & Classification of Firearms & Ammunition (Ch 2.11), in the Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law (Dec21)).

In summary, I think it's safe to conclude that from the numerous legal perspectives mentioned in this thread, that primed empty cases are not ammunition for the purposes of any of the relevant Acts.

[Mattnall]

On 1/22/2022 at 7:12 PM, Laurie said:

'Cadmus' (Colin Greenwood) in the old Guns Review magazine reported on a legal case on this issue back in the 1980s or early 90s that created a legal precedent. ..

I think this is the case I was referring to in the previous post. As I understand it the offence is a primed case in a public place with no lawful excuse is to be considered as ammunition. The result was primed cases were fine as long as you had the lawful excuse or were at home etc.

I cannot find the exact precedent despite looking in all the books I have here, no doubt it'll turn up and I'll be corrected.

[Popsbengo]

32 minutes ago, Mattnall said:

I think this is the case I was referring to in the previous post. As I understand it the offence is a primed case in a public place with no lawful excuse is to be considered as ammunition. The result was primed cases were fine as long as you had the lawful excuse or were at home etc.

I cannot find the exact precedent despite looking in all the books I have here, no doubt it'll turn up and I'll be corrected.

The VCR Act 2006 has redefined the law I believe.