Vortex Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 Good video, I agree with what he’s saying and I would say all of what he is saying is going back to fundamentals in Marksmanship, Loading your ammo, load development etc. But do all the extras like cleaning, batching brass and bullets by weight etc give that noticeable or in fact imperceptible edge that gives you the extra accuracy/consistency your chasing over just getting what I would say are the fundamentals which is what he describes in the video. I don’t know, If you are enjoying the shooting it’s all good. If your getting stressed and pissed off over it and start to loose enjoyment because of chasing the elusive perfect load which in fact could be just an error in another aspect of shooting maybe that’s the point at which you say ye all this extra effort in regards to loading isn’t really worth it and just stick to the basic stages. That’s unless you sadistic and like to punish yourself then chase away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 I would say how you do your load development and how you arrive at what is your final load matters more than all the sorting and uniforming in the world. Just because you end up shooting a couple of small groups it doesn't mean its a good load. I think a lot of people rush or neglect the load development and call it good as soon as they see something that to another man would only be considered promising. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furrybean Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 3 minutes ago, Big Al said: I would say how you do your load development and how you arrive at what is your final load matters more than all the sorting and uniforming in the world. Just because you end up shooting a couple of small groups it doesn't mean its a good load. I think a lot of people rush or neglect the load development and call it good as soon as they see something that to another man would only be considered promising. You’re 100% right, and once the load of found why not make them as accurate as you possibly can. Load dev for me is about looking at windows also. Find a wide powder node and a wide seating depth node unless you enjoy constantly chasing a very narrow node. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 6 hours ago, furrybean said: You’re 100% right, and once the load of found why not make them as accurate as you possibly can. Im not convinced that accurate rifle ammunition needs to be made as accurately as we can. Just because we can do something it doesn't mean we have to, yet human nature naturally makes us think it will be better so we try to make it as perfect/consistent as we can. Ive seen plenty of examples when either factory ammo in a particular gun shoots amazingly well (benchrest standard) even out at distance and other times when someone I know has developed a load and again it shoots amazingly well only to later find their powder scales cant even weigh consistently to within 0.2gr or they never even clean the primer pockets between reloads. In the example Ive quoted on factory ammo, stripping it apart shows inconsistencies in charge weight beyond what most of us would find acceptable yet how can it shoot so amazingly? or who wouldn't clean their primer pockets if they were a match shooter? Im not saying we should build our ammo in a slap dash way but the question still remains as to how can ammo that was built with nowhere near the same care and attention shoot so well in a certain barrel? my feeling is because it is within a really sweet node for that particular barrel. Finding these really sweet nodes usually takes more testing than most people are prepared to do. Sometimes shooters drop on that perfect node from time to time within a small amount of load development but its luck rather than good understanding. When I shot LR benchrest I was surprised by what other competitors told me they did for load development, it was far from thorough yet they were splitting powder kernels with a Stanley knife blade to make sure each charge weighed the same on their £600 electronic scales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furrybean Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 Yeah but what do you know… Mr UK record holder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 6 hours ago, furrybean said: Yeah but what do you know… Mr UK record holder What I do know is the deeper I look into these things the more I realise just how little I know. 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris-NZ Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 On 1/18/2022 at 11:02 PM, Triffid said: .. Case weight/batches? I've proved to myself that case weight is irrelevant. It's internal volume that counts and there is no relationship between case weight and internal volume... I assume you are talking about variations with the same batch/brand of cases? Certainly not true with a brand change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortex Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 Would a difference in case weight, so thickness of wall not have an effect on the internal volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 29 minutes ago, Vortex said: Would a difference in case weight, so thickness of wall not have an effect on the internal volume. Yes, but why would the wall vary enough to matter? We're talking about competent manufacturing with quality control, there's all sort of issues with thicker/thiner brass in the forming process that would cause the manufacturer to need to control the material dimensions. It's not a credible issue in my mind. Volume variance is much more likely to be length, especially head to shoulder index. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One on top of two Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 Well this certainly turned into a can of worms .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted January 23, 2022 Report Share Posted January 23, 2022 1 hour ago, One on top of two said: Well this certainly turned into a can of worms .. the interesting ones tend to 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triffid Posted January 24, 2022 Report Share Posted January 24, 2022 17 hours ago, Chris-NZ said: I assume you are talking about variations with the same batch/brand of cases? Certainly not true with a brand change Yes, within the same batch/brand. I don't mix headstamps ever and keep batches of cases together. I spent alot of time measuring the internal volume of about 120 S&B 6.5CM cases that I bought as factory ammo. I found about 0.6gn variation in internal volume within the batch, and grouped them into 20's to minimise the effect. The Quickload model predicts that the 0.6gn change would give about 15fps variation in muzzle velocity. Not sure if it had a significant effect, but it was an interesting exercise. Triffid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortex Posted January 25, 2022 Report Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/23/2022 at 9:06 PM, Popsbengo said: Yes, but why would the wall vary enough to matter? We're talking about competent manufacturing with quality control, there's all sort of issues with thicker/thiner brass in the forming process that would cause the manufacturer to need to control the material dimensions. It's not a credible issue in my mind. Volume variance is much more likely to be length, especially head to shoulder index. Suppose it would depend on good quality components etc. But it would change case capacity and so pressure changes if it’s not consistent. whereas skimping on cleaning isn’t going to have the same effect on variations in pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popsbengo Posted January 25, 2022 Report Share Posted January 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Vortex said: Suppose it would depend on good quality components etc. But it would change case capacity and so pressure changes if it’s not consistent. whereas skimping on cleaning isn’t going to have the same effect on variations in pressure. Buy quality components and minimise variables before setting about making crap a bit better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MH Posted January 25, 2022 Report Share Posted January 25, 2022 On 1/17/2022 at 11:02 PM, Popsbengo said: When I win £180M on Euromillions I'll sponsor a comprehensive study of variables and prove that a lot of the folk lore around reloading is pseudoscience. Honest I will... Very true but another important factor is time. When I retire and am not overseeing the commissioning of Submarine Nuclear Reactors I will hopefully have the time do do more comprehensive analysis. If you can consistently and repeatably (not necessarily accurately) measure something then if it is the same each time that must (intuitively) be better than something that varies (less variability). However, what appears to be consistent (within the limits and repeatability of what you can measure) does not necessarily mean it will be more consistent on paper (holes on the target). I have a new toy to play with (late Birthday present to myself), arrived today via Singapore, China, UAE and Germany. All set up but it will be a little while before I have any useful data to share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vortex Posted January 26, 2022 Report Share Posted January 26, 2022 8 hours ago, Popsbengo said: Buy quality components and minimise variables before setting about making crap a bit better. Yes that’s the best bet I think. Just part of good fundamentals. How far you want to take it I suppose is down to your level of OCD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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