AMP seating press

[ds1]

Is anyone planning on getting one? I’m very tempted but want to wait until Erik Cortina has done his test. 

Sort of fingers crossed that it shows gas annealing does as well as AMP induction and that seating force does not account for a hill of beans on targets…..It would keep things simple.

 

[Popsbengo]

In a nutshell - No.

I have constructed a load cell with force monitoring & charting software and have satisfied myself that a "calibrated" hand/arm operating an arbour press gives all the feedback needed to match seating forces.  The press in the ad is just a very efficient way to empty one's wallet (IMHO).

Whatever the heating method used to 'anneal' brass necks, it's imperative that the control is accurate and stable throughout the process if there's any expectation of 'standardised' neck tension.  Induction heating such as AMP seems to offer that - at a price,  molten salt bath is certainly easy to precisely control (my preferred method) and cheap.  A gas flame temperature can be maintained (as used in some factory production lines) but there are some issues I believe especially with pressure fluctuations and drafts with home kit.  Also setting up is a faff with the risk of overheating and ruining test brass.

[John MH]

Eric’s test was a cluster, he was using a bullet seating die that was not matched to the brass, he was using a screwdriver to lever the cases out of the die. I must admit what started off as a reasonable test video became a joke towards the end.

[Popsbengo]

^^ Par for the course,  not impressed.  He may be a good shot but he's full of it.

[ds1]

There are multiple ‘reloaders’ on YouTube. Just pick who you like. ATM Erik and Ulimate Reloader have the AMP press now. I don’t know them personally so view them more as Beta testers, which can be a very useful thing, both time and money saving. I hope F Class John also gets one to add another point of view. What the press is doing is allowing you to test various assumptions. What it’s not doing is directly measuring neck tension but that is just one aspect. 

It’s also questionable if it’s best to wait a year or two for the V2 version- as with the AMP annealer.

[Andrew]

He can say what he wants about the AMP, but he said right off that he used the Bench Source up until he bought the AMP. If he is an established  champion shooter, who at least once shot 1.5 " at 1000 yards, he did it all using the Bench Source. That will be a hard fact to deconstruct while selling the virtues of the AMP.

I've got the Bench Source. Works fine for me. With the difference in pricing between the two units I saved enough to buy a new rifle~ Andrew

[One on top of two]

6 hours ago, Andrew said:

He can say what he wants about the AMP, but he said right off that he used the Bench Source up until he bought the AMP. If he is an established  champion shooter, who at least once shot 1.5 " at 1000 yards, he did it all using the Bench Source. That will be a hard fact to deconstruct while selling the virtues of the AMP.

I've got the Bench Source. Works fine for me. With the difference in pricing between the two units I saved enough to buy a new rifle~ Andrew

This 👆

[ds1]

F Class John has put his first video up, it’s a bit slow. I commented there as Czech Tactical.

 

[John MH]

Far better prepared than Eric was. As he says still early days to get to understand what the graphs are telling you. I think it’s going to take 100s if not 1000s to data collection and analysis to be able to understand what is ‘good’ in terms of load force graphs. Without the ability to compare groups on paper with graphs it’s all a bit of a shot in the dark and to do that will take time and resources I don’t have at present.

[Popsbengo]

8 hours ago, Andrew said:

He can say what he wants about the AMP, but he said right off that he used the Bench Source up until he bought the AMP. If he is an established  champion shooter, who at least once shot 1.5 " at 1000 yards, he did it all using the Bench Source. That will be a hard fact to deconstruct while selling the virtues of the AMP.

I've got the Bench Source. Works fine for me. With the difference in pricing between the two units I saved enough to buy a new rifle~ Andrew

Nail square on the head - well said

[John MH]

10 hours ago, Andrew said:

He can say what he wants about the AMP, but he said right off that he used the Bench Source up until he bought the AMP. If he is an established  champion shooter, who at least once shot 1.5 " at 1000 yards, he did it all using the Bench Source. That will be a hard fact to deconstruct while selling the virtues of the AMP.

I've got the Bench Source. Works fine for me. With the difference in pricing between the two units I saved enough to buy a new rifle~ Andrew

I think it was probably more than just the Bench Source.

[Popsbengo]

"F Class John's" video was interesting - not least for demonstrating the lack of correlation between insertion force and group size.  It was also noteworthy that the best groups are virgin .284 expander (0.3) & virgin no-expander (.26).   Strings with better ES grouped less well !

It seems to me that the insertion force may not be well correlated to the force needed to release the bullet, after all there's other factors to consider due to the interface between the copper jacket and the internal neck brass as well as the 'springiness'  of the neck et-al.

If you look at the insertion force scale between the two best performing groups there's a large difference (~2.5x avg.) and yet next to nothing in average velocity between strings.

The video suggests there's little (nothing?) to be achieved using the AMP press as the data created didn't predict the results (possibly due to so many factors all in play, not least is the variability of the chap on the trigger).  I concur with JohnMH, way too little data to make any useful judgement.

I'm sure AMP will sell plenty whatever the "benefits".  Just needs a bit of slick bull-shine to convince gadget hungry chaps 😁

[Andrew]

1 hour ago, John MH said:

I think it was probably more than just the Bench Source.

That goes without saying but skill is not what is on sale here.  ~Andrew

[ds1]

4 hours ago, Andrew said:

That goes without saying but skill is not what is on sale here.  ~Andrew

Maybe I think of it more as a limited window of opportunity. Frankford Arsenal ( best China) are not making precision presses like the Zero or Turban but a constant force motor and scale could be done in China for a lot less money.  It may hold the same appeal as a treadmill to Stephen Hawking’s but many use Holosun ( half the price) red dots on pistol who used to swear by Trijicon.
 

 

[Popsbengo]

1 hour ago, ds1 said:

Maybe I think of it more as a limited window of opportunity. Frankford Arsenal ( best China) are not making precision presses like the Zero or Turban but a constant force motor and scale could be done in China for a lot less money.  It may hold the same appeal as a treadmill to Stephen Hawking’s but many use Holosun ( half the price) red dots on pistol who used to swear by Trijicon.
 

 

Yes but what's the point ?

[No i deer]

It's the same scenario as fishing tackle It's there to catch the fisherman not the fish 🤪.

Just another gimic 🤔

 

[Chris-NZ]

but it's a well-baited hook if you're easily impressed with "science"..

[ds1]

Deer and Chris, let those without an Autotrickler cast the first stone. Seriously if the thing cost £50 we would all have one because it’s nerdy but interesting to know if seating force  has an accuracy / consistency (ES) effect or not. Like a lot of other kit selling a perceived advantage works but comes with a sticker shock. At least the press does do stuff other arbor presses don’t.

 

[Ronin]

Personally I’ve found the key to consistent ammunition is the following ;

wet tumbled cases 

trimmed to same length

chamfered in and outside neck

flash hole deburred

annealed 

polished in media

full length sized to .002-3” tension

light lube in case neck 

absolute consistency in powder charge

bullets sorted to weight batches

 

all of the above - not necessarily in that order matter a great deal 

 

the AmP press is in my view an expensive gimmick  

 

 

 

[Popsbengo]

5 minutes ago, Ronin said:

Personally I’ve found the key to consistent ammunition is the following ;

wet tumbled cases 

trimmed to same length

chamfered in and outside neck

flash hole deburred

annealed 

polished in media

full length sized to .002-3” tension

light lube in case neck 

absolute consistency in powder charge

bullets sorted to weight batches

 

all of the above - not necessarily in that order matter a great deal 

 

the AmP press is in my view an expensive gimmick  

 

 

 

I do wonder at the fact we trim necks to a thou' tolerance (I do anyway) but do we control the depth of chamfer on the inside neck ? This obviously affects the point at where the neck touches the bullet.  A slightly deeper or shallower chamfer will more likely than not exceed the tolerance of the trim operation.

[Chris-NZ]

50 minutes ago, ds1 said:

Deer and Chris, let those without an Autotrickler cast the first stone. ..

 

Ok, I'm qualified as I only use a Harrell's/Dandy with my AnD. Having said that, I've "expressed interest" in the Ver.4..

 

[Ronin]

Chamber depth controlled by Wilson hand lathe and chamfer tool

[Ronin]

Think the issue I have with this device is that is just shows the seating force required to seat “that bullet”

Whilst this may be indicative of tight brass or a cartridge that may not be as consistent as the others within “the graph line” - its of little relevance unless you pull that case and do something about it 

Also - at what point does it become relevant 

 

The press does no more that the K&M seating dial gauge that was produced twenty years ago 

Expensive mousetrap that does not replace sound reloading process and technique 

[John MH]

From my perspective the AMP Press is another measuring tool that ‘may’ assist in understanding what the effect of a change in process or procedure is having on your brass preparation. I don’t think it is going to be much use for ‘loading’ match ammunition and being able to segregate an ‘off the chart’ round based on seating force alone. The key to getting consistent results from your ammunition is consistent brass, powder, bullets; if everything is the same every time they should all start their journey down the barrel in the exact same way.

I think the AMP Press will be of limited use once you have, by experiment, determined what gives consistent ‘plots’, what is a good or a bad plot is not known or understood, however if they are all the same and sit on top of each other that must be good for ‘consistency’. 
 

It’s a bit like the argument about the accuracy of the actual ‘weight’ of a powder charge measured on a scale or balance beam, the ‘actual’ weight is not really that important, if the scale consistently reads +0.05 grains above ‘actual’ weight who cares as long as each charge is the same.

[ds1]

Andy, I would say that there are two avenues with this, one is the press itself - what this adds over the K&M press is a way of achieving constant seating force. I looked into buying a hydraulic version of an arbor press, which is considerably more expensive than the K&M but still does not give you a constant force. Before the AMP I looked for a while at more industrial type arbor presses with constant force motors on them , certainly not anything new anyway.

Second avenue is if it gives more consistency or better results on targets. I’m happy to let the beta YouTube testers do the work on that.