roe deer and the 204

[Guest 308Panther]

Yes....I am from the States.

But that doesnt mean I am in the State of Dazed or Confused.

I know how big your Roe Deer are.

So no explanation is needed there....

And even tho the Roe is smaller it still deserves the respect any other Deer is entitled to.

Stick to the .243Win...at 23 kills it seems to work very well for you...

So well.... I wonder why you would feel the need to go to a smaller and less than adequate caliber....even with handloading to make it a legal round it still wouldnt be my round of choice.

And it wouldnt be my round of choice for anything larger than a BarnCat....no matter what bullet you put in it.

Why give the Anti's more fuel by dancing in a grey area?

We have a word for hunters that cant play by the rules.....Care to guess what it is??

 

308Panther

 

 

[[/url]

[6ppc]

308 Panther the 204 would work a treat on those kittens though

[Guest 308Panther]

Yeah....I guess my .308 would be a bit of overkill there.....

How bout if I try from the 500 yrd line...Does that get me a Patch??

 

308Panther

[PaulB]

I know this might sound a bit daft but how hard would it be to swage down a bullet from .224 to .204, something like the barnes x bullet, not trying to say it would be right or wrong or legal to do so

[6ppc]

Panther you could so what was left to your jacket if you wanted

[325WSM]

Panther mentioned "Why give the Anti's more fuel by dancing in a grey area?".

 

I feel that this aspect is of importance as posting publicly of ones use of bullets/ammo that do not conform to legal requirements would seem to add 'fuel' to that particular fire besides doing the individual a disservice.

 

Of late there have been quite a lot of folk posting on the shooting forums and esp so in the Stalking Forum arena about their use of bullets they feel suitable for deer that are actually varmint style bullets (eg 70 & 80gr B/Tips in 243 etc) and therefore illegal for deer use in the UK.

 

I for one find it is most pleasing to have so many contributors on this site – who would generally use varmint style bullets – being so positive about the bullet construction requirements for deer.

 

Perhaps more of you need to start posting on the stalking forums.

[stag1933]

For the humane killing of any Deer species we must use a bullet which produces CONTROLLED EXPANSION.

V Max bullets are totally unsuitable for this purpose as shown by the photo of the Roe of BB.

V Max are designed for CONTROLLED EXPLOSION which is not quite the same thing however you try to juggle ballistic tables.

Below is a photo of a 120 yard Carrion Crow I zapped with a 75grain V Max out of my .243 , had this been a Deer what would the results have been ???

The bird on the left was shot at twice that distance by which time velocity and susequent energy had been shed.

 

[col48]

name='20ppc' date='Jul 16 2007, 10:29 PM' post='5320']

Hi Colin,

 

I think we are talking semantics here, the law is design to protect the deer, if the particular bullet you are using performs in a prdictable maner and is humane I doubt very much whether CPS would deem it in the public interest to prosecute where there was any doubt about the success of a prosecution.

 

nick the fact remains that berger have designed this bullet to be a match bullet, and a match bullet is not legal to shoot deer in this country. just because people have harvested deer with this bullet and put it on the net how well it performed,dose not make it a deer legal bullet. and just because you are unlikely to get prosecuted for using one does not make it legal as well. and no one should be encouraging people to brake the law buy using them.

 

 

 

The fact that Berger market their bullets as match is irrelevant,

 

no the fact that berger have marketed there bullets as match bullets means they where designed for shooting in competitions, all there research and development has gone in to how to make this bullet perform well in competition.

none has gone in to how the bullet performed on deer, no research has gone in to how well the bullet holds together,dose it retain xxx of its original weight.because it is a match bullet,full stop.and until berger do the tests that should be done to re brand the bullets,then they will remain match bullets.

 

 

the question is how does it perform on impact with tissue, this would mean very expensive scientific tests, the involvement of very expensive barristers etc etc, just to confirm that a bullet which is marketed as a match bullet actually performs like a section 5 expanding round.

 

my point exactly, just because people say that a bullet performs well on the net, does not make it a good choice, i don't think people would be so quick to put on the net that they used a match bullet and had a nightmare trying to find the beast they had just shot with a match bullet

this is y the bullet manufactures brand bullets, to tell the customer what they where designed to do.

IE match bullet target shooting

varmint bullets for varmints (crows fox and so on)

hunting bullets for game (deer pig and so on)

 

the way i see it is they make bullets to perform a certain way for a reason. a deer bullet has to expand in a controlled manner,and retain xxx amount of its original weight. and has to exit the beast, so you have a chance of finding the beast after it goes pear shaped. and just because you have not had a runner does not mean you will never have a runner. and we all make mistakes,(to air is human)

 

 

ATB

Colin

 

[shootingbags]

Colin,

 

You don't have to make a mistake to get a runner. I have shot the heart and lungs out of deer and they have still gone 40-50 yards. if this is in thick cover you definitely want a blood trail.

[ejg223]

Trying to think back, what was the reason for

using a 204 on roe again?

It was saving a couple pence on ammo wasn't it,

to avoid using 243, 22-250 on crows and rabbits.

Is the 204 ammo that much cheaper??

And after buying that 3000 quid custom rifle we want to save what?

 

Maybe rather get a 2000 quid rifle and some ammo

 

In 22 I thought the majority would be using 55gr+ for roe anyway,

and its available.

 

Next year we ask ourselves who makes a tight twist 17 and who

makes a 50gr needle for roe, hey it's legal.

 

edi

[col48]

Colin,

 

You don't have to make a mistake to get a runner. I have shot the heart and lungs out of deer and they have still gone 40-50 yards. if this is in thick cover you definitely want a blood trail.

 

 

hi Gary

 

when i was in Ireland we where instructed to pinn the beasts, and i shot a sika hind in the front leg taking out its lungs and part of the heart,and broke the opposite leg.

this very same beast ran up a vertical hill about 150y and tried to jump a fence 2 times,then expired.

this beast had seen me just before i took the shot.and i think adrenaline had a lot to do with how far she ran.

but yes i do agree with you.

 

 

ATB

Colin

[6ppc]

You should have shot it with a 204 then Colin then it would have dropped on the spot Sorry couldnt resist.

[col48]

You should have shot it with a 204 then Colin then it would have dropped on the spot Sorry couldnt resist.

 

hi Martyn

 

i am not against the 204, nor am i for it being used for deer control. i have never had one nor do i intend to get one,so I'm in no position to comment on its performance.

 

but i am against people advocating the use of match bullets on open forum. no mater how they perform.

the fact of the mater is they are not legal and can not be made legal until re classification of them by the manufacture. full stop.

 

as no one has come up with another bullet that is designed for hunting and not varmint in 204 and 50g then i would say at this present moment in time you can not make the 204 deer legal.

 

now is it ethical to shoot deer with a 204 now thats another story all together, and one i have no interest in getting involved in.as i have no experience with the 204.

 

me i use a 270 wsm for all my deer control and have shot everything from muntjac to sika stag with no meat damage, and only the 1 runner that was actual dead but no one had told her yet when i shoot roe, after i have pulled the trigger all i see is 4 legs sticking up,so i have no interest in making a 204 deer legal.

 

ATB

Colin

 

PS may be i need a 204 then Martyn

[20ppc]

Afternoon Colin,

 

Accoring to Berger, the 204050T is a Match short range target bullet, the 204050T is also classified by Berger on their website as a "Hunting" bullet for varmint, ie they are saying on their website that it is designed and is suitable for use on live animals. As far as I know there is no legal definition in either English or Scottish law for the term varmint. The law is worded for deer and refers to minimum bullet weights. Therefore if the manufacturer is saying that their bullet is suitable for use on animals and it meets the minimum legal weight requirement then that bullet is legal. Whether you agree with the ethics is upto you. The 50gr berger actually performs very well on roe and it may surprise the cynics amongst you that on most occasions it does infact produce an exit wound.

 

In view of the above I would be more than happy to use it on Roe and I know that I would not be prosecuted for doing so.

 

Regards,

 

Nick

[6ppc]

I think you do need one colin,they drop on the spot and die laughing Just trying to lighten the mood.If there was a suitable bullet available for the 204 then i would have no problem it being used where 22c/f is legal,i would still always go for a larger calibre though.

[col48]

hi this is from Berger's web site.

 

We only make match grade bullets, which means that we use the highest quality copper and lead available. The copper is made into the J4 Precision Jacket, which is recognized around the world as the bullet jacket with the best concentricity available. We don't just claim to make jackets that measure .0003 or less variation in wall thickness, we actually do it. This can be verified in every lot and is the reason why benchrest shooters who make bullets by hand use J4 Precision Jackets exclusively. More often you will find that J4 Precision Jackets measure .0002 or less. We make all of our J4 Precision Jackets and bullets on one set of dies to insure that all of the bullets in each box are as consistent as possible. Consistency is the key to ultimate accuracy and no one makes a bullet as consistent as we do. Some people comment that our bullets are too expensive. If you care about accuracy you sort the cheaper brands. If you have to buy four boxes of the cheaper bullets to get 100 bullets that measure the same then you could have purchased two or three boxes of Bergers resulting in 2 or 3 times as many good bullets for less money out of your pocket not to mention the added time it takes to sort all of those bullets.

 

Varmint Bullets

 

Our varmint bullets are designed specifically for the varmint hunter. The slightly larger opening in the nose allows the bullet to expand instantly creating the highest possible opportunity for an explosive, one shot kill. The J4 Precision Jacket that we use has a thinner wall at the nose to assist in rapid expansion while it also has a base that is thick enough for high velocity cartridges. We use the same high-grade materials and techniques to make our varmint bullets so you can expect the same tight groups you get from our target bullets.

 

 

 

 

Very Low Drag Bullets

 

Designed by Bill Davis, the VLD bullet is on the cutting edge of using bullet design for improved external ballistics. The VLD bullet is designed to provide less drop and drift than any bullet on the market today. This result makes the VLD an ideal choice for the medium to long-range target competition shooter. If you stand behind a shooter using a VLD bullet and watch the bullet's vapor trail you will see a flatter trajectory than with non-VLD bullets (assuming similar velocity). VLD bullets can shoot well at any OAL. If you do not achieve the accuracy level you are looking for by jumping a VLD bullet then you may find that your rifle will shoot VLDs more accurately if the bullet touches the rifling when the round is chambered. VLD bullets may need a little more tweaking than non VLDs but when they are working well they are tough to beat.

 

 

Hunting Bullets

 

The MATCH VLD bullets are proving to be the most lethal big game hunting bullet available. (Watch Demo Clip) The VLD design incorporates a sharp nose that allows the bullet to penetrate up to 3 inches before it starts to expand. This delayed expansion results in a wound channel that is deep inside the vital area of any big game. After the bullet starts to expand it will shed 80% to 90% of its weight into the surrounding tissue traveling as deep as 18 inches. This results in a massive wound cavity that creates the greatest possible amount of tissue damage and hemraging within the vital area (organs). This massive and extensive wound cavity result in the animal dropping fast. Our bullets don't poke through like an arrow but instead expend all of their energy right where it is most effective, inside the animal. Bullets that poke through so that they can cause a blood trail are designed to result in a hunter tracking a wounded animal. Using the Berger VLD will result in an animal that goes down fast so you can enjoy the results of your hunt without having to track the wounded animal after the shot. You owe it to yourself to see how accurate and deadly the Berger VLD will be on your next hunt. To order a 30 minute video for $5 that provides more detail on the bullets, cartridge and velocity used to take several animals at a variety of ranges call 714-447-5456.

 

now nick lets not get confused on what the law says over here, and not what you can do over the pond

 

 

QUOTEa) For the shooting of deer of any species, a

bullet of an expanding type designed to

deform in a predictable manner of not less

than 100 grains (6.48 grams) with a muzzle

velocity of not less than 2,450 feet per

second (746.76 metres per second) and a

muzzle energy of not less than 1,750 foot

pounds (2,373 joules) must be used.

 

For the shooting of roe deer only, a bullet

of an expanding type designed to deform

in a predictable manner of not less than 50

grains (3.24 grams) with a muzzle velocity

of not less than 2,450 feet per second

(746.76 metres per second) and a muzzle

energy of not less than 1,000 foot pounds

(1,356 joules) may be used.

 

 

i have highlighted the important bit for you.this means hunting bullet not varmint bullet.as a varmint bullet is designed to explode, not expand in a predictable manner.

the 50g 204 is a varmint bullet,it says it on there web site.and the bullets they are now marketing as hunting bullets are vlds, the 50g 204 is not one of them ether.

 

 

so again until there is a bullet made that is the right one,then no you can not make a 204 deer legal.

 

ATB

Colin

[Bambi-basher]

On my land, I have a real problem with rabbit, fox and Roe. It would simply be nice to take one which can handle all 3. 40 grains for the rabbit and fox and 50's (plus a twiddle with the scope) If I come across Roe.

A larger calibre gets expensive pretty quick on bunnies!

Kev.

 

Now I think we accept that when correct hunting bullets are available you could legally use a 204 on roe, this bring you to the next question why would you?

 

Kev

 

Your only reasoning is that it would be cheaper to reload your 204 over your 243 well that is the most unconvincing argument I ever heard. You could run your 243 on them devastating 58gn bullets for varmints and just dial in adjustments on the scope for your 95gn bullet when a roe step out. Oh looks like just what you are going to do with the 204.

 

I suggest that the only reason you want to use the 204 on deer is because you can. You have no concern for what is most appropriate calibre to use, you even admit that the 243 with 95gn bullets is more humane than the 204.

 

Your wish to use this calibre is nothing but vanity, you wish to show off to your mates “look at me how good I am I use this super sexy calibre and not that boring common calibre you lot use.”

 

You have brought no convincing arguments to the board that demonstrate a good reason to use your 204 over your 243.

 

Nick

 

If Berger say match/varmints on the box and you end up in court trying to get your FAC back after your FLO has revoked it for using varmint/match bullets on deer then the judge in court would be guided by the expert witness, somebody along the lines of Mike Yardley and the Bullet manufactures submission. Do you think they know the difference between varmint and deer bullets. In such a situation it is very likely you would kiss your FAC goodbye.

 

If these Match bullets are really section 5 expanding ammo then every Dealer that has sold them without entering them on to the users FAC has committed a offence and every target shooter who used them to shoot targets has also broken the law using section 5 ammo for doing so.

 

B-b

[Ronin]

Ok

 

lifted from The BASC site:

 

For roe deer the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds.

 

It must be stressed that all these figures are the minimum legal requirement.

 

In all the above areas the bullet must be of a type designed to expand/deform on impact.

 

So minimum requirement for ROE Deer in Scotland ONLY;

 

50 grain bullet, MV no less than 2450fps, ME of 1000ftlbs. Bullet designed to expand / deform on impact (unlike the UK regs where it says bullet has to be soft point of hollow point - there is no mention of expanding on impact in UK regs - which seems daft)

 

 

Now if we decide to use a .204" for Deer in the UK, we have but one bullet that is "readily" available, not one we construct ourselves, or one that is specially imported to the UK - we are talking available to all - that being the Berger 50 g. It is designated as a "varmint" bullet. Well deer may well be varmints in some peoples eyes - there could well be some people who are also regarded as varmints in others eyes but we won't get into that one here....

 

Under UK law this bullet "could" fit the bill - i.e. its a hollow point - but as there is no way that the 204 will get to 1750fts lbs its out for Deer in England - so lets look at that bullets suitiablity for Scottish Roe (poor roe)

 

Will it meet 1000 ft lbs? - YES

 

Is it a 50g? - YES

 

Is it designed to expand / deform on impact? - unfortunatly YES, but explosive deformation - not controlled - were looking at surface blow ups with this bullet on roe deer methinks......

 

 

 

Now, I questioned the "ballistic superiority of the .204 over say a 22-250.

 

Yes both are flat shooting and when one uses 50 grain bullets in either they give just about the same results, but as someone has already ponted out, a 50grain bullet in a .204 is NOT the same as a 50grain in a .224", I think the comparison should be made against .224 bullets in the 60 - 75 grain .224"weight to make a fair test.

 

I trolled through most of the manufacturers I know of looking for 50 grain .204 bullets, I looked at the folowing makers:

 

Sierra, Speer, Nosler, Hornady, Barnes, Remington, Moeller, Winchester, Berger.....

 

 

I only found the ONE maker of 50 grain bullets - Berger.

 

So using a 3500fps benchmark, I entered the data for a 50g Berger .204, 62g Berger .224", 53g Barnes TSX .224" and the Hornady .224 75g A-Max for a comparison.

 

All will make 3500fps in their respective calibres (.204 Ruger and 22-250 rem)

 

I also put 10mph crosswind in out of badness as its a fair measure of UK weather conditions (I think)

 

 

.204” - 50grain Berger “varmint” bullet, BC = .296. Ave MV = 3500, ME =1360ft lbs

 

Shot in 10 mph cross wind (ave UK conditions)

 

100 yds zero .8” drift 1098 ft lbs

200 yds -2” -3.5” drift 881 ft lbs

300 yds -8.4” -8.2” drift 701 ft lbs

400 yds -20.4” -15.4” drift 551 ft lbs

 

 

.224” – Barnes 53g TSX Deer legal - .231 BC, MV 3500 fps,

ME 1441 ft lbs

 

Shot in 10 mph crosswind

 

100 yds Zero 1.1” drift 1095 ft lbs

200 yds -2.3” -4.6” drift 882 ft lbs

300 yds -9.5” -11” drift 607 ft lbs

400 yards -23.6” -21.1” drift 439 ft lbs

 

 

.224” – Berger 62grain “match” bullet, BC = .298, MV 3500 fps, ME = 1686 ft lbs

 

Shot in 10 mph crosswind.

 

100 yds Zero -.8” drift 1363 ft lbs

200 yds -2” - 3.4” drift 1096 ft lbs

300 yds - 8.4” -8.2” drift 873 ft lbs

400 yards -20.3” -15.3” drift 687 ft lbs

 

.224” Hornady A-Max, “match bullet”, BC = .435, MV = 3500 fps, ME 2040 ft lbs.

 

Shot in 10 mph cross wind.

 

100 yds Zero .6” drift 1764 ft lbs

200 yds -1.8” -2.3” drift 1523 ft lbs

300 yds -7.4” -5.3” drift 1309 ft lbs

400 yds -17.4” -9.8” drift 1121 ft lbs

 

 

 

 

Interestingly, you'll see that the 50g 204 Berger and the 53 g Barnes TSX in .224 are about equalto 300 yards - average stalking distances. the 204 takes over beyond but I don't think that I would attenpt a shot on Roe beyond there with either calibre.......

 

When we look at a fairer comparison using the 62g Berger in .224" against the 50g Berger .204 we see that they are ballistically identical (as expected)

 

However should one use the far superior 75g A-Max there is a quite dramatic difference in drop, wind effect and more importantly ft lb at every distance noted.

 

 

Now I am not advokating one uses A-Max on deerm before I hear uproar, neither do I advokate the use of a "marginal" calibre like the .204 Ruger, it has its place - FOX and Vermin control ONLY,

 

Untill they make a specific bullet for controlled expansion on larger species in .204" let keep it there please... I could wax lyrical about making ones own bullets but there isn't space or time for me to do so, suffice to say if you feel the need to purchase your own dies for swaging bullets feel free to spend the £5000 you will need for each set.

 

Alternatively have Callum, Norman or Peter make you a stalking rifle in a proper calibre for deer instead.

[Guest rogern]

I've got a .204, its superb at what I bought it for, Foxes & Rabbits, funnily enough, when I did the research, thats exactly what it was designed for! well Coyotes & PD's actually so IMHO its just fine. Never did read anything about killing deer with it though, I've got a .308 for that, and they dont run off if I do missplace a shot.

 

Aint this thread getting a bit repetitive now guys?

[6ppc]

I agree with Rogern i think we are now flogging a dead horse and its time to close this thread whilst everyone is still friends