Jump to content

roe deer and the 204


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 119
  • Created
  • Last Reply

I have a box of 50g berger sitting in front of me and its says on the box

 

Boat Tail

20 cal 50 Grain

Match Grade

 

There are actually hollowpoint design but there marketed as match grade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a box of 50g berger sitting in front of me and its says on the box

 

Boat Tail

20 cal 50 Grain

Match Grade

 

There are actually hollowpoint design but there marketed as match grade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there is a bit more too killing an animal

than energy alone.

I hate it when the magazines write the 260 or

7-08 and even the 6.5 grendel beats the 308.

So..... if the 308 is marginal on a grizzly we

have the perfect answer, take a grendel???

but let me behind the tree...

 

Alone the difference between seeing a sika

being hit by either 6.5 or 30 cal taught me enough.

 

There is a bit of truth in the american "stopping power"

 

now panther! say something

edi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good subject this, and as i,ve already said, i,ve never shot a deer, and i,m going on friends experiences only, and freely admit it.

What concerns me, is peoples inability to distinguish a varmint calibre, from a humane deer round.

58 grain v max in a .243 is an out and out varmint round, any .204 load is a varmint round, a 40 grainer out of a 22-250 is a varmint round......do you see my point? yes? no? why risk a wounding, or if accurate, blowing half the deer away? ft/lbs, and bullet weight, kill, and anchor deer, not frangible bullets travelling at 4000 fps plus, ask any of the soldiers who defended the khyber pass, and got chopped up by the rebels, who carried on running after taking pipsqueak rounds, why do you think the "wogstopper" came about?

My concern isn,t for who does what, or who thinks this that , or the other...its for the poor bloody deer, they arent there for ballistic experiments, if your gonna shoot them, do it properly, and with a suitable cartridge, i dont want to offend, or fall out with anyone, but remember, the whole world can read this, including the people who are going to change the deer act shortly, what will they make of this?

The BDS already dont want .22 centrefires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hi nick

 

the question was can you make a 20 cal deer legal,

 

the berger bullet is marketed as a match bullet, this makes it a none starter, no mater how well it performs.

yes we all know berger bullets perform well on beasts,hell berger are going to market them as hunting bullets,

but with the word match on the box,I'm sorry you could not use them legally.

 

now if you or beer hunter points me in the right direction to some of the shelf bullets that will expand in a controlled manner,not varmint bullets then the answer would be yes you can make the 204 deer legal.

 

ATB

Colin ;)

 

Hi Colin,

 

I think we are talking semantics here, the law is design to protect the deer, if the particular bullet you are using performs in a prdictable maner and is humane I doubt very much whether CPS would deem it in the public interest to prosecute where there was any doubt about the success of a prosecution. The fact that Berger market their bullets as match is irrelevant, the question is how does it perform on impact with tissue, this would mean very expensive scientific tests, the involvement of very expensive barristers etc etc, just to confirm that a bullet which is marketed as a match bullet actually performs like a section 5 expanding round. The question any prosecution would have to ask itself is does the bullet expand on impact, if the answer is yes there would be no case to answer and therefore no prosecution. This just highlights the stupidity of the law in relation to expanding ammunition!! The term "match quality" is also somewhat ambigious as it can be taken to mean of high quality and therefore has no legal standing in terms of the relevant legislation. As noted above it would be for the prosecution to prove its case not the other way around.

 

Regards,

 

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless memory fails me I seem to rememember reading about changes in the law to permit .22 centrefires in England and Wales for Small Deer and this did NOT include Roe but only CWD and Muntjac . I hope the sponsors of the .204 or whatever it is keep it out of England as it would appear to be an illegal calibre for Roe.[irrespective of the possible unsuitable projectiles available.]

Why people wish to shoot at Game animals with Varmint bullets and cartridges I do not know.

In my mind it shows a total lack of respect towards a fine animal. Unfortunately we only hear of the success stories and not the inhumane cock-ups which occur.

 

Between 1972 and 1993 I shot many Sika, Fallow, Reds and Sika/Red Hybrids with the small rifles in Eire due to perverse legislation there but when the ceiling was lifted to .270 in 1993 I immediately sold my Mauser .30-06 work-tool and bought a .270 Win.

Generally I pick up the .270 whenever I go stalking even though I have a .243 and .308 [i gave the .22/250 to a friend when I bought the .243]

In the words of the late Robert Ruark `USE ENOUGH GUN.`

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless memory fails me I seem to rememember reading about changes in the law to permit .22 centrefires in England and Wales for Small Deer and this did NOT include Roe but only CWD and Muntjac . I hope the sponsors of the .204 or whatever it is keep it out of England as it would appear to be an illegal calibre for Roe.[irrespective of the possible unsuitable projectiles available.]

Why people wish to shoot at Game animals with Varmint bullets and cartridges I do not know.

In my mind it shows a total lack of respect towards a fine animal. Unfortunately we only hear of the success stories and not the inhumane cock-ups which occur.

 

Between 1972 and 1993 I shot many Sika, Fallow, Reds and Sika/Red Hybrids with the small rifles in Eire due to perverse legislation there but when the ceiling was lifted to .270 in 1993 I immediately sold my Mauser .30-06 work-tool and bought a .270 Win.

Generally I pick up the .270 whenever I go stalking even though I have a .243 and .308 [i gave the .22/250 to a friend when I bought the .243]

In the words of the late Robert Ruark `USE ENOUGH GUN.`

 

Inhumane cock ups!! I've seen plenty of those from people using 308's, 243 etc, What do you classify as a varmint cartridge!! The 243 was infact designed as a "varmint" cartridge to shoot 70gr bullets for cayotes, yet most people use 100gr bullets which in most barrels will not stabalise properly.

 

Karamojo Bell used a small calibre rifle, I think it was a .256 Rigby to shoot thousands of elephants, ie "Proper bullet placement"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20ppc.

If you have seen plenty of cock-ups with eminently suitable cartridges such as .308 , .243 etc why pratt about with a pip-squeak ?

Many sensible people use 85 grain bullets in the .243 which stabilize perfectly.

My Sako Varminter is a ragged 1 holer with 87gr V Max for vermin or 85gr Game King for Deer.

 

I know a guy who shot a Dik-dik antelope with a .22 air rifle [through the eye into the brain ] whilst trying to get a Guinea Fowl for the pot but it doesn`t make that a weapon suitable for general use on that quarry species.

The same with Mr Bell and the Elephants !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As far as I remember the 243 was designed as a

deer cartridge also ok for Varmint, at least that was

the marketing startegy.

The Elephants where by Mr. 7x57 wasn't it.

But that's not so important now.

What I'm more worried about is to rely on a

too small bullet. It will work if it opens up, if it doesn't

you're buggered. So the why take the risk.

In SA in my childhood we used FMJ 308 on small game,

they worked fine. Didn't need to expand, hole was big enough.

 

Of coures a bad shot is shite, that is a different story.

 

Lets put it this way a 50gr out of a swift at a roe at 50yds

is in my oppinion marginl enough, why go 20 cal, tomorrow 17 cal.

edi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Inhumane cock ups!! I've seen plenty of those from people using 308's, 243 etc, What do you classify as a varmint cartridge!! The 243 was infact designed as a "varmint" cartridge to shoot 70gr bullets for cayotes, yet most people use 100gr bullets which in most barrels will not stabalise properly.

 

Karamojo Bell used a small calibre rifle, I think it was a .256 Rigby to shoot thousands of elephants, ie "Proper bullet placement"

 

20 PPC

 

I agree with your comment that if you support the use of 22 cf for deer you can not argue against the use of 20cal with the right bullets. My issue is with Beerhunter using 58gn varmint bullets to shoot deer, do you support this?

 

Did you take a look at the photo I posted of the deer shot with a varmint bullet? It shows typical case of surface bullet blow up. When I approached the deer with my dog it ran 25yrds then laid down again and did not have the strength to get to it’s feet, even when the dog approached it. I shoot it from 10yrds while it was laying down. If it had of been hit with a 100gn bullet or above I have no doubt that it would have been dead on the spot.

Which calibre is inhuman?

 

As to your comment that stalkers are using 100gn bullets in 243 that are not stabilizing do you think that these people do not check there zero before they go out, my own 243 with 100gn bullet groups 5/8 inch groups do you think that would be adequate for shooting deer.

 

As for Karamojo Bell shooting elephants with his 6.5/7mm well they were a head shots “with never a lead bullet fouling his barrels” so we will go out with 17rems and use bronze solids and so long as we head shoot all our deer all will be fine…………..except for the ones with there jaws hanging of.

 

While the Prosecutor Fiscal might not bring a prosecution for using match bullets to shoot deer, because it would be too difficult to prove wrong doing, I wonder what your FLO would say come renewal time? It would be you that would have to go to court and prove that you did no wrong doing at your cost to get your ticket back.

 

As for people saying “I have never had a deer run” well I say how many of them have you shot then because if you shoot enough you will have the odd runner.

 

B-b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, I shoot the vast majority of my Roe with a .243 and 95 grain Nosler BT's. With that said, I've only shot 23 Roe (exactly, I keep records) with .243 58 Grain V-max and I have never had a single runner with them. Most drop on the spot. Not one has got further than 40 yards.

Perhaps some of you have more experience to convince me not to use this bullet?

 

Getting back to the .204 - using data from the Hodgdon site, I've used Sierra Infinity to produce date for the following graphs - clicky

From these results, there is absolutely no doubt that the .204 Ruger has the potential to be an excellent Roe round. However, as I've already said, I have not tested the terminal ballistics of the 50 grain .204 bullets and therefore cannot give a conclusive recommendation on them.

 

What is certain is that the .204 Ruger with 50 grain bullets is Roe legal in Scotland. That is where this conversation began on the the AirgunBBS and for me this is where it ends here.

 

I've no intention to make enemies on a site where am I am a newbie, so I'll leave this discussion with a promise to post my results when I have them.

 

Kev.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bullets do funny things when hitting game

it's not always explained with a computer program,

The best bullet performance I can recall was my

my father shooting a duiker with a 22lr pistol out

of the car window while driving in SA, Duiker was

running in front of us back and forth. It dropped

on the spot, shot through the lungs. That's over

30 yrs ago.

The worst bullet performance i saw was a year ago,

Sika almost broad side at 80 yds, I hit the shoulder with

a normally good fusion 150gr 308. Bullet bounced

and split. Two exits on either flank and badly gut shot.

We found it 80 yds on and dispatched it, but what an eye

opener.

edi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stagg, my point was that just because you use a traditional cartidge you can't negate cockups if the person pulling the trigger is not capable of proper shot placement. The fact remains that with proper shot placement and correct bullet a 20 caliber will kill a roe every time.

 

Edi, as above, the argument with the .204 bullets was that they open up too violently!! you are saying they might not expand enough, which is it? again proper shot placement. If you are saying a 50gr out of a swift at roe at 50yds is marginal, then you must accept that a 20cal is better, look at the ballistics.

 

B-b, I personaly would not use a 58gr Vmax on deer, but it is upto Beerhunter to defend his position if he feels the need. I know for a fact that there are some "stalkers" who hardly ever take their rifles out from one year to the next, and who might shoot 10 rounds a year, I would much rather have an accomplished rifle with a .204 than one of these so called stalkers out with a 308!!. I accept that there are a lot of 243s that will shoot 100gr bullets but there are alot that wont. If its established that its legal to shoot roe with a 204 why would an FLO question this? I dont see why this would be an issue? The example of Bell was used to illustrate the point that with proper bullet placement unconventional cartridges can be just as effective as the more traditional, again I would rather be standing behing Bell with his 6.5 than some rich tourist with a 458 or bigger. You mention head shooting deer with .17s, This thread is trying to establish if it is legal to shoot roe in scotland with 50gr 204s, If it was legal and the marksman was capable of taking a headshot with a 17 I would not have a problem with it. When did I say I have never had a deer run?

 

Nick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest 308Panther

I seen alot....and I mean alot of the 30-06 boys move up to 300 win mags because

they couldnt drop a white tail with an '06...but the real truth was...They couldnt shoot worth a darn in the first place....I cant tell you how many 3 legged deer I seen run past me,or how many were shot in the ass or the guts because they didnt take the time to wait for a shot,or the shot was taken with a 12x scope on 12x while the deer ran past them at 30 yrds....Got any idea how far a whitetail can run gutshot???.....Miles....Their reasoning was knockdown power....

 

I seen a .223 enter thru the shoulder,punch one rib go thru the vitals,bounce off the rib on the far side and cross back thru the vitals and exit between ribs....that shot was taken 35 yrds...I will give this one some credit.....at least he killed it on the spot.

 

I seen a .243Win punch thru a feeding deer and take out the one standing behind it as well...that was a 2 for 1 sale....lucky the guy the group had an extra permit that needed to be filled...The shooter was sick about it for 3 days tho...as the second one was just a yearling and he never saw it.

 

I dont know of many Griz taken with a 7-08...have heard of a few Black Bear taken w/a 7-08....but then there is at least a 2-300 pound differance....sometimes 400 lbs.....

And I seen one 350 lb Black Bear taken with a 30-06...Range 30 ft.It was a treed bear...

Most of the guys doin spot and stalk Big Griz are usin the old tried and trues...45/70....416 Rem or Rigby...triple 4 Marlin...or the .338Win...Some are usin 300Win mags...Some use the 7mmSTW too

Most of the color phase Bear arent gettin that big...300lbs or so wich puts the Color Phase Griz in a Large Black Bear class...Black bears here in Wi dont get much over 400lbs....

 

Try...just try to find 6.8 Grendal ammo....This is why I avoid alot of these fad cartidges...Up where I hunt,its alot like 50 yrs ago..where ya bought ammo at a mom and pop hardware store...And I seen this one with my very own eyes....They had 10....TEN...Boxes of 30-40 Krag....and they werent dusty either.

When is the last time you seen a 30-40Krag???

 

 

I checked 4 ammunition sites ....

Hornady

Remington

Federal

Winchester

Not one of them offers a 50 gr hunting bullet....or ballistics on a 50 gr hunting bullet.

Match Grade bullets do not come with a canalure.

Hunting grade bullets do.....This does a number of things on mass produced ammo 2 of wich are:

1)It is a good spot to put lube and crimp and control seating depth.

2)if you were to cross section a bullet....in alot of cases the the canalure is where the partition is at for controlled expansion...

 

I keep waiting to hear this "Magical 204" to produce more than my .308Win....

 

Then I know someone is sniffing crack....Butt Crack.

 

The .204 was designed as a low recoil,affordable centerfire to control varmints...and minimize damage to the pelts....

I would hardly call a Deer of any species a varmint.

So I wouldnt and wont use a .204 on Deer....Any deer.

 

Not only is the .204 unethical for Deer....but here in Wisconsin its illegal...

And rightfully so....And I hope it stays that way too.

 

308Panther

Link to comment
Share on other sites

B-b, I personaly would not use a 58gr Vmax on deer, but it is upto Beerhunter to defend his position if he feels the need. I know for a fact that there are some "stalkers" who hardly ever take their rifles out from one year to the next, and who might shoot 10 rounds a year, I would much rather have an accomplished rifle with a .204 than one of these so called stalkers out with a 308!!. I accept that there are a lot of 243s that will shoot 100gr bullets but there are alot that wont. If its established that its legal to shoot roe with a 204 why would an FLO question this? I dont see why this would be an issue? The example of Bell was used to illustrate the point that with proper bullet placement unconventional cartridges can be just as effective as the more traditional, again I would rather be standing behing Bell with his 6.5 than some rich tourist with a 458 or bigger. You mention head shooting deer with .17s, This thread is trying to establish if it is legal to shoot roe in scotland with 50gr 204s, If it was legal and the marksman was capable of taking a headshot with a 17 I would not have a problem with it. When did I say I have never had a deer run?

 

Nick

 

Firstly let me comment Beer hunter on his honesty in openly admitting that he has shot only 23 roe deer no criticism implied we all had only shot 23 once. ;) I am glad you are reconsidering your use of the 58gn V-Max bullets ;) as has already been mentioned bullets do not always do want you expect when you shoot live animals I have seen 308 150gn soft point bullets hit Red stags in the ribs when standing board side on and the bullet exit out its back leg (can only imagine that the rib deflected the bullet).

 

Nick

 

My comments about the legal issues were directed towards the use of match bullets for deer not whether the 204 is deer legal or not I am with you on that one I believe it is legal.

 

My comment regarding runners was directed not at you but at Kev and 17rem.

 

I note a under current of contempt for the ability of “stalkers” to shoot accurately, is this really a view you hold?

 

Lastly let me thank Beerhunter for bring this post to the forum it is good to have a bit of lively debate. ;) Keep posting Kev we have no problems with good discussion.

 

B-b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

204 ballistically superior to 22-250?

 

I'll play with some figures and get back,, so long as we stay civil.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bb,

 

perhaps I did not express myself very well, I do not have any contempt towards stalkers, being one myself, all I was trying to do was to illustrate the fact that we all have a duty of care towards the animals we shoot, whether we use a traditional deer calibre or something more unusual. I do not have any respect for someone who does not practice with their rifle and then goes out on the hill or wood to shoot a living creatur rellying on knockdown power to do the work for them.

 

Andy,

 

The equivelant .204 bullet is ballistically supperior to a.224 bullet, You have to compare similar cartridges ie a TAC20 with a .223 , a 20BR with a 22-250 or a 20Satan with a Swift. I have no intention of becoming uncivil over a discussion on cartridges, its not that important.

 

Nick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly let me comment Beer hunter on his honesty in openly admitting that he has shot only 23 roe deer no criticism implied we all had only shot 23 once.

Sorry, you misunderstood me. What I said was:

Firstly, I shoot the vast majority of my Roe with a .243 and 95 grain Nosler BT's. With that said, I've only shot 23 Roe (exactly, I keep records) with .243 58 Grain V-max...

23 with V-max, a great deal more with other rounds ;)

 

Kev.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

308Panther,

 

It seems that you are from the US and therefore may not know about our Roe deer (sorry is this assumption is wrong).

Roe are small and lightly built deer that weigh in at about 20-28 kg (44-62 lb). Their body length is about 100-140 cm (39-55") and their height (at shoulder) around 60-70 cm (23-27.5").

Think of a labrador with long legs and you are not far off.

I'd certianaly not think about taking a whitetail deer witha .204! I believe whitetail come in at up to 80kg (176 lb).

 

Kev.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that if their is a suitable GAME bullet available for the 204 then it would be just as capable as the 222 223 etc on roe deer. Due to the smaller diameter of the 20 cal bullet it is obviously going to have to be longer than a 22 cal bullet of the same weight therfore generally giving a higher b.c translating into more down range retained energy.Berger match bullets will probably kill roe no problem but until Berger sell them and label them as a game bullet that expands in a controlled manner then im afraid i would not risk having my ticket revoked for using them.I think that as the berger is built on a j4 jacket and although it has been used successfully so far their might be a time when it does not behave as it has done previously.I find that the J4 jacket is rather thin and has a tendancy to lean more towards a varmint bullet expansion wise in the smaller calibres than to expand in a controlled manner.

 

As to the 20 cal being ballistically superior to a 22 centerfire you have to compare apples to apples,it is all very well comparing a 40 grain 20 cal bullet which is at the upper end of the 20 cal weight range and therfore longer and more aerodynamic with a higher b.c to a 22 cal 40 grain bullet from a 22-250 which is at the bottom end of the 22 cal bullet weight range and is therfore short and stubby with a low b.c. A fairer and more realistic comparison would be to compare a 20br shooting 50 grain bullets which are currently at the top end of the 20 cal scale and leaning more towards a low drag bullet to a 22-250 shooting 75 grain bergers.Which one do you think would be ballistically superior now? my money would NOT be on the 20 cal.Please dont take this as knocking the 20 cal as i think they are great and currently have a 20tactical build underway and also a 20 ppc barrel due,i just dont think there is any point in trying to make them something they are not.

 

The 58 grain v-max is an out and out varmint bullet,you only have to look at 'Varminter's' posts with his 6ppc to see how violently it expands on animals as small and light as crows and rabbits.To my mind it is designed to expand violently on impact on small creatures to transfer the maximum energy to the to ensure a humane kill which it does perfectly,it is not a bullet that is designed for CONTROLLED expansion.

 

One las thing before i forget,in my opinion i would not think you would gain more barrel life with a 20 br over a 22-250 even though you are using several grains of powder less.My theory is that you are forcing more powder down a smaller hole therfore generating more heat and throat erosion.

 

Thank you for keeping all of this civil as it is nice to be able to leave an interesting debate open.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


Lumensmini.png

IMG-20230320-WA0011.jpg

CALTON MOOR RANGE (2) (200x135).jpg

bradley1 200.jpg

NVstore200.jpg

blackrifle.png

jr_firearms_200.gif

valkyrie 200.jpg

tab 200.jpg

Northallerton NSAC shooting.jpg

RifleMags_200x100.jpg

dolphin button4 (200x100).jpg

CASEPREP_FINAL_YELLOW_hi_res__200_.jpg

rovicom200.jpg



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy