roe deer and the 204

[325WSM]

Quite, and with such small bullets you dont even damage the eyelashes.

[Beer Hunter]

What is the point of trying to find a bullet that is capable of all that is mentioned above when there are so many more suitable cals available.The only time i would think it would be worth looking into is if that was the only rifle you owned.

On my land, I have a real problem with rabbit, fox and Roe. It would simply be nice to take one which can handle all 3. 40 grains for the rabbit and fox and 50's (plus a twiddle with the scope) If I come across Roe.

A larger calibre gets expensive pretty quick on bunnies!

If I were going out specifically after Roe then I would stick with the .243.

 

...the ballistic argument (it drops less than some 22 centerfires) just doesn't wash heavier bullets lose less momentum and will therfore be ballistically superior carry greater energy down range etc.

Its ok if the bullet gives 1001 ft lbs at the muzzle and you are shooting a 50grain bullet. But the 204 loses too much

ME and velocity down range to make me even want to consider it. Great for rabbit and fox though.

Sorry Andy, but you are not quite right here. Retained energy is a function of muzzle velocity and BC - nothing else.

As an example, a .22-250 is more powerful than a .204 ruger at the muzzle, but down the range the .204's superior BC allows it to take the lead in terminal energy.

I refer you to the 50 grain comparison example I gave earlier:

Calibre		MV	ME	200yd V	200yd E
.222		3100	1067	2310	592
.22-250		3600	1439	2722	822
.204 Ruger	3500	1360	2816	880

 

Make your own - you only have to ring Gillie Howe at Modern & Antique to get the kit to do it yourself.

Interesting! Cheers.

 

Kev.

[325WSM]

Just out of interest what bullets / load do you use on your roe with the 243?

[Beer Hunter]

Just out of interest what bullets / load do you use on your roe with the 243?

100 grain Nosler Partition for red, fallow or sika, 95 grain Nosler BT for Roe and 58 grain v-max for fox and Roe.

 

Kev.

[ejg223]

Beer Hunter,

I don't think people like you will be

the problem, you research and put a rifle,

bullet and shotplacement system together that

possibly makes sense. First time it fails i presume

you would change things and rethink.

 

The problem is, if it is known to everyone that

204 is fine for roe, even better than 22-250!! then

all those looking for the fox crow roe rifle will get one.

 

That will be Tom, Dick and Harry. They will not find

those 50gr copper specials and just use the 32gr HP

that the shop has.

I wouldn't take a fella with that setup along for roe.

Waste a bloody day running after what? maye not even

a blood trail.

On the other hand, the europeans have been using 222,

223, 22-250 and so on for decades on roe, some

good factory ammo is on the shelf for them.

 

In Ireland everyone is happy to get rid of their 22-250

and replace it with 6.5, 243, 270..... for deer shooting.

After being forced to use 22 cal on, up to red deer for

so many years.

 

edi

[shootingbags]

100 grain Nosler Partition for red, fallow or sika, 95 grain Nosler BT for Roe and 58 grain v-max for fox and Roe.

 

Kev.

Kev,

 

Sorry to hijack the thread - how do you find the 100g on the Red's and Sika? I have used the 95's on Roe and also 87g Hornady and they work excellent. Also, what rifle do you use?

[6ppc]

Beer Hunter how do you find the 58 v-max on roe from the 243,i would have thought with it having such a thin jacket and being designed for violent expansion that it would create some huge meat damage.Do you down load it to keep impact velocities at a lower level so it does not expand as quickly?

[325WSM]

After using the 95BTs you will be dissapointed. The Vmax are of course illegal for deer.

 

Why not stick to the 22-250 and use PP 50 or 55gr ammo, as it is cheaper than reloading and more than good enough for field use. No fiddling with scope - just use the same for everything. The 50 or 55 work well on rabbits or hares and are excellent for fox. Since fox pelt is equivilent to roe they should be a good choice for you esp @ £7.50 for 20.

[Bambi-basher]

Hi Beerhunter

 

Were in Scotland do you stalk? And do you have a trained deer dog? If you are going to use the 204 on deer and want some insurance with a dog to follow up with PM me, and I will give you my phone number.

 

I don’t charge much just fuel costs and a bottle of whiskey is appreciated (none of that blended shite, single malts only ). I am always looking for opportunities to get the dog a few more runners.

 

B-b

[Beer Hunter]

Kev,

 

Sorry to hijack the thread - how do you find the 100g on the Red's and Sika? I have used the 95's on Roe and also 87g Hornady and they work excellent. Also, what rifle do you use?

I was recommended the Nosler Partition by a keeper friend who only uses a .243 for everything. I load it in front of 39.2 grain of H414 with Federal magnum primers to give 2930 fps. Never had a problem with them

 

I use a Sako rifle with a 22.5” barrel, PES over-barrel moderator, Bushnell Elite 4200 4-12X50 on Optimate mounts, Timney trigger. The action has been pillar bedded. Clicky pic.

 

Beer Hunter how do you find the 58 v-max on roe from the 243,i would have thought with it having such a thin jacket and being designed for violent expansion that it would create some huge meat damage.Do you down load it to keep impact velocities at a lower level so it does not expand as quickly?

I'm cracking them out at just over 3980 fps. Again, I've never had a problem on fox or Roe with them. On Roe there is never an exit hole, the entry hole is almost non existent but the heart lung area is completely destroyed.

I guess if I got a shot wrong then there may be problems, but then again I don’t take chances and only pull the trigger with a perfect broadside shot after watching the animal’s behaviour for some time.

I find the V-max very effective and totally humane.

 

The Vmax are of course illegal for deer.

Are they?

How so?

 

Hi Beerhunter

 

Were in Scotland do you stalk? And do you have a trained deer dog? If you are going to use the 204 on deer and want some insurance with a dog to follow up with PM me, and I will give you my phone number.

 

I don’t charge much just fuel costs and a bottle of whiskey is appreciated (none of that blended shite, single malts only ). I am always looking for opportunities to get the dog a few more runners.

 

B-b

I stalk mainly on my own land and other farms and estates nearby. I’m also lucky enough to receive regular invites to stalk in the Angus glens and further afield.

One of my dogs is good at tracking deer – just as well, he is flipin useless at everything else!

Luckily he is very rarely needed.

 

Kev.

[Vermincinerator]

Beerhunter,

So a .204 Ruger firing a 50grn bullet is ballistically superior down range then a 22-250 firing the same, Hmmmm......

Are your tabulated figures from your own real observations or results of inputting a ballistic program?

If the former is true thats a pretty feeble 22-250 load, as for the 204, loaded to that velocity i bet your cases are F----d after one firing!

 

Ian.

[Beer Hunter]

Beerhunter,

So a .204 Ruger firing a 50grn bullet is ballistically superior down range then a 22-250 firing the same, Hmmmm......

Are your tabulated figures from your own real observations or results of inputting a ballistic program?

If the former is true thats a pretty feeble 22-250 load, as for the 204, loaded to that velocity i bet your cases are F----d after one firing!

 

Ian.

Ian,

 

I'm using figures from US sites where they are using heavier .204's more than at this side of the pond.

The exact figures are not significant anyway. The important point is that is that the .204 with 50 grain heads is "up there" with the faster .22's and well ahead of the smaller .22's which are commonly used for Roe in Scotland.

 

Kev.

[Vermincinerator]

Ian,

 

I'm using figures from US sites where they are using heavier .204's more than at this side of the pond.

The exact figures are not significant anyway. The important point is that is that the .204 with 50 grain heads is "up there" with the faster .22's and well ahead of the smaller .22's which are commonly used for Roe in Scotland.

 

Kev.

 

I am a big fan of the 22-250 so when you say that the 204 with 50 grn bullets is better then the 22-250 with the same, you need to back that up with hard facts my friend.

So in this case figures are significant, please direct me to The "US" sites that prove your statement.

 

Ian.

[Beer Hunter]

I am a big fan of the 22-250 so when you say that the 204 with 50 grn bullets is better then the 22-250 with the same, you need to back that up with hard facts my friend.

So in this case figures are significant, please direct me to The "US" sites that prove your statement.

 

Ian.

Ian,

 

I don't need to do anything other than convince myself and my FEO that what I am dong is correct and proper

The figures I quoted were gained form reading many, many pages of articles and I'm not about waste my time collating them all here.

There is no way I'm going to get into the willy waving competition that every discussion on comparative ballistics ends up in. Exact figures are just all too dependant on individual guns.

I'll post my 50 grain loads here once the rifle is done.

 

Just to give you something to read, here are a couple of articles:

http://www.6mmbr.com/20Caliber.html

http://www.rugerhunting.com/204_overview.php

On these pages you will see the .204 outperforming .22-250's, but somehow I don’t believe that you will agree with their findings.

 

Kev.

[baldie]

You wont find a stronger supporter of the .204 ruger than myself, i was one of the first to own one in GB, and certainly the first in Yorkshire. Show me a 50 grain bullet that is roe legal, that can be bought here, then show me a factory barrelled rifle that is capable of shooting it accuratly.........it doesn,t exist. Then point me towards a barrel maker , or anyone in this country with a suitable barrel blank on the shelf, and i,ll buy it.

You will rapidly piss people off on here, talking about shooting roe with a .204....trust me.i,ve never shot a roe, but i,ve shot enough other stuff with a .204, to know it is not suitable, look at the trouble the coyote hunters have had, with sub surface blow ups.The .204 was designed as a small varmint round, not a deer cartridge, and i cannot for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to risk wounding a deer with a "borderline" cartridge, at best. There are people on here , who have double your experience my friend.

That said, welcome to the site, i hope you enjoy it.

[Vermincinerator]

I have no intention "waving your willy" mate, but your links prove nothing, the 6mmBR link does not list 204 Ruger loads for a 50grn bullet.

The Ruger link only compares a 40grn load, err... i thought we were comparing 50 grn bullets????

When you can come up with actual proven load data showing that a 204 Ruger shooting 50 grn bullets can ballistically outperform a 22-250 shooting the same weight bullets, i will be the first to admit i am wrong.

Challenge issued, nuff said.

 

Ian.

[col48]

hi Beer Hunter

 

i will ask again, what bullets are available for the 204 that are designed to expand in a controlled manner, and are 50g or more,??????

as was not the question can the 204 be made deer legal, if there is no bullet on the market that is of the right design then the answer is no.

if there is then please tell me where i can buy them in this country and the makers name.and i will send for some,and we can conduct a test. but they must be hunting bullets, not varmint or match.

 

 

 

 

 

The figures I quoted were gained form reading many, many pages of articles and I'm not about waste my time collating them all here.

then please do not use this info to back up an argument, now I'm not calling you a liar,but we don't know you from Adam,and we are supposed to just take it as Gospel.

 

 

I've never had a problem on fox or Roe with them. On Roe there is never an exit hole, the entry hole is almost non existent but the heart lung area is completely destroyed.

 

i would not use this bullet, for one if there is no exit wound then you are going to have a very hard time tracking a best.

 

 

I guess if I got a shot wrong then there may be problems, but then again I don't take chances and only pull the trigger with a perfect broadside shot after watching the animal's behaviour for some time.

 

i hope for the beasts sake you don't get it wrong

 

ATB

Colin

[Guest 308Panther]

I smell Bullshit!!!!

 

Them 50gr bullets are made from unoptanium.

 

 

 

308Panther

[col48]

I smell Bullshit!!!!

 

Them 50gr bullets are made from unoptanium.

 

 

308Panther

[Bambi-basher]

Beerhunter

 

Please take a very good look at this photograph of a buck that I had to dispatch a couple of years ago after somebody shot it using incorrect varmint bullets on deer. You will see the infected wound on the shoulder were the bullet struck, it broke the shoulder but did not have the energy to penetrate into the body cavity the buck suffered for a week before I was able to catch up with it by then it was hardly able to walk.

 

 

The 58gn bullets were designed to be used on animals the size of prairie dogs not 50lbs roe deer. For the sake of the deer do not use them please.

 

Your arguments for the use of the 204 with correct bullets had some validity, sorry now I believe that if you are prepared to us 58gn V-Max in your 243 I have no confidence that you would use the right bullet in your 204.

 

If you are getting not exit wound and there fore no blood trail unless you have your dog to hand immediately I would not give you much chance of tracking a deer 24hrs latter.

 

B-b

[6ppc]

please keep this thread civil or it will be closed.

thank you

[20ppc]

Steve Bowers has an of the shelf 1in8 twist barrel for a 20cal. The 50gr bergers are easily upto the task of penetrating 3-4" into a thin skinned lightly built roe deer. If you accept that .22cetrefires are asuitable on roe, then as long as you use at least a 50gr bullet to comply with the law in Scotland you can't argue against the twenties. At the end of the day it is all about shot placement . If you shoot a roe in the heart lung with a 50gr bullet from a.20 or .22 centrefire you will kill it everytime. If you cant shoot that well you should not be shooting deer, you cannot rely on calibre to make up for lack of shooting ability. No names no pack drill but I know of one pest controller who has shot numerous roe with a 20BR with 50gr bergers. He reports that in every instance the heart lung area was completely destroyed, however most of his shots are either neck or head.

Beer Hunter is right, the equivelant 20cal bullet is ballistically supperior to the 22cals. Also the 20s tend to be very efficient cartridges, for example the 20BR uses around 34gr of vit N133 cmpared to 40 or so for the 22-250 for the same velocity!! ie longer barrel life and cheaper to run. There was an article in Small Calibre News a couple of years ago that did a comparison between the .223, the 22swift and the tact20, tha better bc of the 20calibre kept up with the swift and eventually over took it in terms of performance.

With regards to bullet splash, I can speak from exoerience having shot a 20 cal for over two years, using 39gr blitzkings on foxes I have never had any problems in this respect, having shot over 200 fox in this time I have only ever had one runner and that was due to a shot that was a bit too far back in the liver. Prior to using the 20 I used a 22-250 and in my experience the 20 is far easier to use in that wind drift is much less than with the 22-250.

We are all concered for the welfare of the deer we shoot, but to write of a calibre as not upto it and to deride someone for daring to suggest something different seems unfair especially when alot of what they are saying makes sense.

 

Nick.

[baldie]

I,ll contact Steve, then 2oppc, as i,m looking for a barrel for a project.

Are the 50 grain bergers a match bullet though? if they are, they aint deer legal, are they?

Head shots are no indication at all are they, the same death can be dealt with a .22 rimfire.The drawback with allowing a "borderline" cartridge, is that for every expert, who CAN use it humanely, there are 99 tossers, who cannot, and that means 99 wounded deer, for every dead one.

I have to ask how many roe beerhunter kills, as he reckons his dog never has any work to do? i,ve never shot a roe, but i know the vast majority run on, and die, regardless of what they are hit with.

I,m still in the "use enough gun" camp, there isn,t a valid reason against it imo.

[17 Rem]

i,ve never shot a roe, but i know the vast majority run on, and die, regardless of what they are hit with.

 

Mate, I have shot Roe, and disagree. Can't remember the last runner I had.

[col48]

Steve Bowers has an of the shelf 1in8 twist barrel for a 20cal. The 50gr bergers are easily upto the task of penetrating 3-4" into a thin skinned lightly built roe deer. If you accept that .22cetrefires are asuitable on roe, then as long as you use at least a 50gr bullet to comply with the law in Scotland you can't argue against the twenties. At the end of the day it is all about shot placement . If you shoot a roe in the heart lung with a 50gr bullet from a.20 or .22 centrefire you will kill it everytime. If you cant shoot that well you should not be shooting deer, you cannot rely on calibre to make up for lack of shooting ability. No names no pack drill but I know of one pest controller who has shot numerous roe with a 20BR with 50gr bergers. He reports that in every instance the heart lung area was completely destroyed, however most of his shots are either neck or head.

Beer Hunter is right, the equivelant 20cal bullet is ballistically supperior to the 22cals. Also the 20s tend to be very efficient cartridges, for example the 20BR uses around 34gr of vit N133 cmpared to 40 or so for the 22-250 for the same velocity!! ie longer barrel life and cheaper to run. There was an article in Small Calibre News a couple of years ago that did a comparison between the .223, the 22swift and the tact20, tha better bc of the 20calibre kept up with the swift and eventually over took it in terms of performance.

With regards to bullet splash, I can speak from exoerience having shot a 20 cal for over two years, using 39gr blitzkings on foxes I have never had any problems in this respect, having shot over 200 fox in this time I have only ever had one runner and that was due to a shot that was a bit too far back in the liver. Prior to using the 20 I used a 22-250 and in my experience the 20 is far easier to use in that wind drift is much less than with the 22-250.

We are all concered for the welfare of the deer we shoot, but to write of a calibre as not upto it and to deride someone for daring to suggest something different seems unfair especially when alot of what they are saying makes sense.

 

Nick.

 

 

hi nick

 

the question was can you make a 20 cal deer legal,

 

the berger bullet is marketed as a match bullet, this makes it a none starter, no mater how well it performs.

yes we all know berger bullets perform well on beasts,hell berger are going to market them as hunting bullets,

but with the word match on the box,I'm sorry you could not use them legally.

 

now if you or beer hunter points me in the right direction to some of the shelf bullets that will expand in a controlled manner,not varmint bullets then the answer would be yes you can make the 204 deer legal.

 

ATB

Colin