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roe deer and the 204


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i've just had a heated discussion over on the airgun bbs site with some guy who thinks it would be legal to shoot roe deer in Scotland with a 20 cal rifle,it all started from a link i posted to this site that he just dismissed as inferior to the bbs the fool :( .I just spoke to my local authority and they sead they would not grant a 20 cal for deer, anybody have any more info on this as i would hate for him to be right

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Guest northernchris

I would,nt shoot owt bigger than fox with the .204 after looking at the limited selection of bullets avalible.

 

Chris

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This is from BASC's web site mate. I also thought the same as yourself but in the case of yester years we would have been correct. But it looks like that if you can load and fire a bullet which meets the specs in the link then Im afraid it is legal! What we must hope for is respect for the beast and the use of the grey matter. Whilst it would be legal would it be proper?

 

For roe deer the bullet must weigh at least 50 grains AND have a minimum muzzle velocity of 2,450 feet per second AND a minimum muzzle energy of 1,000 foot pounds.
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on the met web site it states a min. bore diameter of .222met site

 

I cant dissagree nor am I trying to bring the argurment over here, but my level 1 book states the same as the BASC quote and I believe its a direct quote from the home office not a regional branch.

 

Even if you could use 204 cal there are no expanding bullets in 50 grain available,the only 50 grain bullet is a Berger match.

 

Thats what I was trying to say, if the person COULD get a deer legal round for the mentioned calibre then I think by the way I see the wording then and ony then it would be legal.

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only trying to get clarification on the issue not wanting to cause an argument on this site guys

 

No worries I didnt think you were trying to rock the boat but its got me looking the net! I cant get the home office firearms page open but its definately going to be a lively debate!

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some of the guys on airgun bbs scare me

 

I only look on there for scopes 4 sale

 

there was recently an argument where quite a few guys thought that if you were under the age of 17 you were not allowed any pellets to stray over your boundry. hhaaa

 

and if you were over 17 it was ok hhhhhhhhaaaaa

 

dumb f***ks or what

 

oh yeh and .22 air was more powerfull than .177 hhaaaaa :( I never knew they were different ft lbs

 

 

one guy said that allthough they are the same foot pounds, cause the .22 was bigger they impact harder hhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaa where do these people work for **** sake, bet there on more money than the likes of you and me sensible folk

 

sure I can live with the fact that the bigger pellet would cause more area to be affected by the impact and so softer animals like rats it would would be better but you gotta look at the fact that if some one kicked a football at me at 12ft lbs its hardly going to hurt is it but if someone flicked a pin at me at 3ft lbs its gonna cause damage

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It "might be just legal" and I use this in the most cautious manner, but the man is a fool - too small a bullet, too frangible, just asking for a skin blow up and RSPCA all over him.

 

 

Idiot :(:(:(:(

 

Thats the guy on the airgun forum not you PNSE :D

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That link from Vermincinerator is good, who would have though that the .600NE and .700NE were illegal !!. I also think it would be unwise to use a .204 against deer legal or not, , they deserve better.

 

A

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You all know my views on the 204 for fox let alone deer but I went through this debate about 2 years ago when the hunting rather than target or varmint bullets first became available in 50 and 55gr.

 

Yes it is legal in Scotland (and was then) and technically is little different to using a 22-250, which again I personally disagree with simply because so few folk seem to understand the difference between the types of bullets esp so with the 22cal as most are totally unsuitable for deer.

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Guest northernchris

Yep there are a few knobbers on there :lol: As regards .22 cal rifles for Roe i have used .222/.223/.22-250 on Roe for 20 years and with the use of the right bullet they are spot on.As ever bullet placement is the key.

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You all know my views on the 204 for fox let alone deer but I went through this debate about 2 years ago when the hunting rather than target or varmint bullets first became available in 50 and 55gr.

 

Sorry, am not aware of your views on the 204 for fox, I would be interested to know what they are,

 

Nick.

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Guest 308Panther

Even tho I am not fully aware of all the hunting laws,and I dont reside in the UK,I would like to toss my 2 cents worth in....

In Wisconsin I can legally hunt with a centerfire rifle of .22 or larger.And these would include the .222,223,22-250,22 Hornet,220 Swift....

 

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/

 

If you were to go to the above link and pick any of the 22 cf's and compare Rem's own factory loads against the 204 Ruger with the heaviest bullet they offer...40 gr AccuTip Boat tail ...you will see some

interesting results...The only 2 the 204 doesnt beat out in muzzle energy are the 22-250 and the 220 Swift.

I tried to keep the bullet type and weight as close to the same as the 204 40 gr ATBT when I picked out the choices of loads...If I couldnt match the ATBT bullet I chose a pointed soft point bullet.

I am sure one could arrange the bullet choice fields so all of the 22cf's would beat out the 204...

 

Even tho I got results of the 204 beating a 222,223,22H in muzzle energy I still cant use a 204 because the caliber isnt bigger than .22

 

Now I know a .22 mag rimfire(illegal) will kill a whitetailed deer with a headshot at close range (40 yrds max) even tho I have never tried it or was tempted to try it....Is it worth the loss of hunting for 5 years,loss of rifles,loss of vehicle and the fine if caught.....Is it ever worth it?....NO and NO

 

I know the White tailed deer is larger than the Roe...but does this mean its ok to use a smaller caliber than what I can legally use on the deer here...Again my answer is no.

 

90% of our deer shot here are shot from 30 to 80 yrds out, and even knowing this I still wouldnt consider using anything smaller than a .243Win. and this is my own personal choice.

I have seen deer killed effectively with a 22- 250,and a 223...but they just simply are not my choice for a deer caliber.

 

The .204 Ruger is effective....,very effective on Bobcat,Coyote and Lynx and other fur bearing animals....but for deer,it is just not an option.And shouldnt even be considered as an option.

 

308Panther

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Guest rogern

I hav'nt found the page I'm looking for but I thought it stated .22 centerfire min somewhere, regardless of that I wouldnt use my .204 on Roe.

 

325WSM, I never saw your views re fox & .204, only speaking from experience but I have killed every fox I,ve shot at with mine, out to 300 yards & the majority chest shot using 32 grain vmax. To me it seems a very effective round, they were all very dead foxes.

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Without going into specific whys and wherefores or wishing to start a debate, suffice it to say I am disappointed in the 204. Basically my point of view is as follows – and I stress it is my view not a general appraisal of the cartridge.

 

The hype in the USA in 2003 when it was first released was fantastic and I like so many others fell for it and wanted one. It took me into 2004 to actually get a Ruger Ultralight, which I still have, and even longer to be able to try Factory ammo.

 

Yes, the round is accurate and superbly flat out to greater distances than my 22-250 but for my style of shooting where positive accuracy is often not attainable I was finding longer range shots were not always resulting in immediate death. Rabbits were dragging themselves away with their front legs and hares seemed to be able to take hits that they never did with the 22-250 and 55grn Ballistic Tips.

I know all the animals shot would certainly die from their wounds but I like to see immediate results from my shot and more than I wished I found that I wasn't. Some rabbits were literally cut in half but others despite savage wounds could escape me because of the distance I needed to cover to pick them. That I found unacceptable

 

I have tried various hand loads with an assortment of components and I feel the 204 is simply too fast. I still use it for shots out to 200yds but actually prefer the 222 or 223 and I use the 22-250 or 25WSSM for the longer shots. I shoot a lot of hares on emerging Sugar Beet at what I know a lot of you consider unacceptable distances – but needs must

 

Last year a friend and self shot over 200 hares in 3 evenings – none with the 204 and none were seen to have escaped. Yes we missed some esp at distance and yes for the even longer shots we often used a sighter (dusty ground) but even at longer than usual distances the hares were dead on the spot.

 

I prefer a heavier weight bullet at slightly slower speeds than the 204 and have now decided to sacrifice trajectory for more positive effect.

 

I can only speak as I find and for me I now have a 204 for sale and will use some of the other rifles in my cupboard instead.

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Guest rogern

Thats a lot of work with a rifle, I am just recreational so dont have to put it to such tests as yourself, if i did maybe I would come to the same conclusion.

 

To me I can reach foxes with the .204 that I would have normally left with the 25-06, I think its just a confidence thing but like yourself I wont shoot at anything unless I am sure its within my capabilities to kill it, the .204 gives me that confidence.

 

Regards

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Another aspect to this particular thread is that way back in 1990 the Northern Ireland Police Forensic Laboratory tested various calibres in respect of using them on Fox and the conclusion was that a fox pelt is similar to a deer pelt and that therefore the most suitable round for longer range flat shooting of fox is not a 22 cf but the 243.

 

So by implication perhaps not only should we consider not using the 204 on deer but also equally not on fox.

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Its horses for courses with any calibre really isn,t it? and people must use what they think best and have the most confidence in. 325WSM, and myself have had many interesting conversations about this calibre, as he says, it doesn,t do what he wants...personally, i love it, and wouldn,t use anything else on fox. However, i personally think a man who will hold his hands up, and say he doesn,t like it, and wont use it any more, because it wont give instant kills on his quarry, is a gentleman, and a true sportsman, and if there were more like him, the world would be a better place.

 

Back to the topic.....why are people like the bbs team, allowed firearms? they shouldn,t have pea shooters, never mind be able to shoot at deer :lol: I stated the that sub .22 calibres arent legal, because they cant be made ballistically so, even the hornet. Yes i know thousands of roe have been killed with the hornet, perfectly humanely, but not legally, and a .204 could not be a worse cartridge for such a shot. It makes me wonder sometimes whether compulsory training wouldn,t be a bad idea for deer shooting, and i,m certainly not one for legislation, or anything compulsory, but maybe it would stop the cretins of this world, ever loosing an unsuitable round off, at a living creature.

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