Moderator as barrel tuner

[1066]

5 hours ago, Adamdavi3s said:

I’d definitely be interested. Could you come up with something which rather than being threaded, used some sort of sleeves to get 95% of the fit and then tightened down? 

Not wanting to thread my new Lilja .22lr barrel I made a slip on adapter. It would certainly have been easier with a parallel rather than a tapered barrel. I ended up making a tapered collet to match the profile.

 

[Mat]

I too have made a barrel tuner: 5/8 UNEF inside, M18x1 for the mod, inside bored out to 22mm to fit over the barrel...

[baldie]

22 hours ago, Adamdavi3s said:

I’d definitely be interested. Could you come up with something which rather than being threaded, used some sort of sleeves to get 95% of the fit and then tightened down? 

Looking at pics of the muzzle mounted ones, they are a simple idea, which requires nothing more than a muzzle thread, though I would guess, it could do with being a tad longer than normal.

I'll knock up a different design when I get time.

[Ronin]

Thinking aloud 

what about using the stick on wheel weights for balancing as a temporary and conveniently quick way to see if barrel harmonics can be affected with a larger diameter mod 

Not the most elegant solution but it would give an indication of what may or may not work 

[Adamdavi3s]

20 hours ago, 1066 said:

Not wanting to thread my new Lilja .22lr barrel I made a slip on adapter. It would certainly have been easier with a parallel rather than a tapered barrel. I ended up making a tapered collet to match the profile.

 

Looks very nice indeed 👌

I have pretty much zero skill in this arena! 

[baldie]

Should have been a holiday today, but agreed to see a chap with some work [ who never showed up ! ]

So i thought i'd do a bit for me, for a change.

Moving the thought process on from the barrel mounted brake I made earlier, which works a treat, I realised, should a customer want one, it would entail too much work, and a re-proof, when the barrel is machined. This unit is completely self contained, and doesn't alter the rifle in any way.

Looking around the internet, I saw Harrel's did a tuner fitted to a brake, so that sent me scurrying for the micrometer.

I wanted to fit one to my 3 port brake, as its a timed unit, and locked on. 

The brake was big enough to allow a thread to be machined onto its outside, for a tuner to run on.

I allowed 4 full turns, though it won't need one, just to be sure.

Machined up the tuner to clear the barrel nicely [it fits over the barrel ] and fitted three grub screws, to lock it in position with, once the correct mark is found.

Into the dividing head on the engraver, and a lick of cerakote in the marks did the trick nicely.

This is fitted to my .224 Valkyrie, which is shooting very well now with 77g TMK's.

I want to use the 85 g RDF's too, but from previous experience, they are very length sensitive.

I think i will be able to seat them , where I want them, not the gun, and tune them in at that desired length.

Thats the theory anyway, whether it works or not, only time will tell, and the range re opens.

All good fun, and made a refreshing change !

[Popsbengo]

That's cracking work Baldie.

Very neat finish and cleverly avoids any barrel machining.  May I ask what thread pitch did you go for and what does one index division equal in change of position?

I'm looking forward to your report of how well it works.

[baldie]

The thread is M24 x 1, and there are 24 increments giving 15 degrees each.

[brown dog]

Perfect!

[brown dog]

(Now please do a replacement external tube threaded for a weight  for a .22lr SAK  mod (thinking that's the .22lr 'standard' mod?) 😊)

[sean c]

Nice one Dave. A lot better (imo) than turning a big section of the barrel down.

[Adamdavi3s]

Absolutely cracking 👏

[Big Al]

I would say Ive been playing around with tuners a lot longer than most, over 3yrs now.

Ive made tuners for my long range benchrest rifles and won competitions with them. They are certainly one way to tune a barrel but what they wont do is tune a barrel any better than a properly done load assuming you know how to do that. Ive also been playing with tuners that have been incorporated into moderators for quite some time as well and that took a lot more testing to ensure than the tuning weight, the adjustment thread pitch and the increments on the weights would allow it to tune barrels of varying stiffness. Barrels vary in stiffness considerably depending on the length and the thickness and so its important to produce something that will work over a wide range of barrels.

During the early part of lockdown I got to the point of pre-production prototypes that were tested by competent shooters that I know, all the feedback was positive and the same, they work all of the time and deliver the same predictable results. To those who reload a tuner offers a faster way of tuning the barrel to the load, typically I would have the barrel tuned in under 20 rounds and the results are always repeatable.

The real benefit of this for me though is for people shooting factory ammo as it enables them to tune the barrel to the ammo and as ammo batches vary it allows easy re-adjustment. Barrel tuning is fairly straightforward once you understand it properly, Im not sure anyone really knows how it works exactly but that doesnt matter so long as it works, its easy to achieve and most importantly the results are repeatable. My results with various types of factory ammo showed that typically a barrel tuned in this way could half respective group sizes, so when fully out of tune it was twice the size group than when fully in tune, starting points with the mod fitted of course varied but by taking it tuner though its range of adjustment you would easily see the largest and then smallest group sizes, lock it of and away you go. Group sizes achieved varied from in the 0.1s to 0.5" depending on the quality of the ammo you were using, tuners may be good but they wont turn poor ammo into match ammo but they will improve it to be as good as it can be. I remember one batch of Eastern European .223 soft point ammo that came down from 1.25" to 0.5" which was quite an improvement and made it very useable considering it was cheap as chips.

I should have had these to market already but to be honest its been a busy year and Ive just not got around to it. Please dont contact me via PM about them as I will get into trouble for unofficial advertising. Im just making this post to show you what can be done, I have no product to sell nor can I currently make anything to order as Im just too busy. Maybe someone else will run with the idea as copying is always easier than innovating.

This was how I got started, I made a new rear insert for a Jet Z with an adjustable weight attached as an easy way of proving the basic concept, I then fine tuned the thread pitch, tuner weight and the increments of adjustment until I had it working well over a wide range of barrel profiles.

I then used different paper scales on my own moderator design as they were easy to make and alter as required, this made it easy to find the number of increments required around the weight.

Some idea of scale compared to a Jet Z and a Wildcat Evo.

I incorporated an interchangeable threaded insert to make switching the moderator from barrels with different threads easier than buying another mod.

What is the collective term for a bunch of moderators?

 

 

 

[brown dog]

Interesting. Makes me think on a .22 SAK mod, the easiest place to 'attack' would be a replacement front end cap, with its exterior threaded, and the weight reflex-style back over the mod.

[Ronin]

Nice work Dave , have you a Deckel pantograph engraver - 

 

re the tuner / moderator 

I guess the moderator and adaptor will only work with a specific mod that is capable of accepting rear threaded in bushings and adaptor to accept the adjustment section and will add weight to an already heavy moderator design 

That’s a great deal if work given no intention to sell 

Whats the weight of your adaptor / adjuster 

 

 

[Big Al]

2 hours ago, Ronin said:

re the tuner / moderator 

I guess the moderator and adaptor will only work with a specific mod that is capable of accepting rear threaded in bushings and adaptor to accept the adjustment section and will add weight to an already heavy moderator design 

That’s a great deal if work given no intention to sell 

Whats the weight of your adaptor / adjuster 

 

 

The Jet Z offered an easy way to prove the concept but with some work and proper testing Im sure the makers of moderators could incorporate the concept if they wanted, whether or not they are prepared to do the testing to get it right or see there is a market for them would be the main thing. 

Initially when lockdown started back in March my phone went quiet and I probably didnt get any new work for the first 6 weeks or so, this worried me a bit so I turned my attention to this project beyond my initial prototypes while things were quiet. Once we started opening up again the work came in thick and fast and it hasn't let up since hence why Im where Im at with it. On reflection I dont really want to be a moderator maker/retailer either but I enjoyed proving the concept.

Things like the tuner weight, thread pitch and increment size aren't something I would want to share at this stage as it cost me a lot of time and money to find this out. The concept works and if anyone sees a market and is prepared to do the work then maybe what Ive done so far will provide some inspiration to them.

[Big Al]

2 hours ago, brown dog said:

Interesting. Makes me think on a .22 SAK mod, the easiest place to 'attack' would be a replacement front end cap, with its exterior threaded, and the weight reflex-style back over the mod.

I cant remember, is the front cap of the SAK integral to the baffles? as I said to you privately there is more to tuning a rimfire than a CF in terms of weight needed, adding it to the front cap would make the mod too big in my opinion, far better to make the weight of the entire mod part of the tuning weight.

It can be done and Ive proved it to myself, it just needs some simple redesigning, whether or not there is a market remains to be seen.

[Popsbengo]

11 hours ago, Big Al said:

What is the collective term for a bunch of moderators?

 

 

 

A collective noun?  A 'phut' of moderators? 

Nice work by the way

[Mark II]

22 hours ago, baldie said:

Should have been a holiday today, but agreed to see a chap with some work [ who never showed up ! ]

So i thought i'd do a bit for me, for a change.

Moving the thought process on from the barrel mounted brake I made earlier, which works a treat, I realised, should a customer want one, it would entail too much work, and a re-proof, when the barrel is machined. This unit is completely self contained, and doesn't alter the rifle in any way.

Looking around the internet, I saw Harrel's did a tuner fitted to a brake, so that sent me scurrying for the micrometer.

I wanted to fit one to my 3 port brake, as its a timed unit, and locked on. 

The brake was big enough to allow a thread to be machined onto its outside, for a tuner to run on.

I allowed 4 full turns, though it won't need one, just to be sure.

Machined up the tuner to clear the barrel nicely [it fits over the barrel ] and fitted three grub screws, to lock it in position with, once the correct mark is found.

Into the dividing head on the engraver, and a lick of cerakote in the marks did the trick nicely.

This is fitted to my .224 Valkyrie, which is shooting very well now with 77g TMK's.

I want to use the 85 g RDF's too, but from previous experience, they are very length sensitive.

I think i will be able to seat them , where I want them, not the gun, and tune them in at that desired length.

Thats the theory anyway, whether it works or not, only time will tell, and the range re opens.

All good fun, and made a refreshing change !

Looks good,  just thinking for use on a .22lr instead of the break could you put a thread for a moderator so as long as the rifle has a threaded barrel the tuner can be fitted to the barrel then fit the mod to the tuner or wouldn't it work that way?

[1066]

2 hours ago, Mark II said:

Looks good,  just thinking for use on a .22lr instead of the break could you put a thread for a moderator so as long as the rifle has a threaded barrel the tuner can be fitted to the barrel then fit the mod to the tuner or wouldn't it work that way?

That's exactly how this one works:

[Mark II]

On 1/2/2021 at 5:54 PM, 1066 said:

That's exactly how this one works:

Yes that would work, how was it in testing 

[Ronin]

Interesting discussion along the lines of load development on stalking directory forum which has been contributed to by Geoffrey Kolbe (Borbal) whose provenance is exemplary 

worth a read alongside this discussion here 

https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/threads/satterlee-load-development-thoughts-on-results.204775/page-5#post-1985779

 

[Popsbengo]

50 minutes ago, Ronin said:

Interesting discussion along the lines of load development on stalking directory forum which has been contributed to by Geoffrey Kolbe (Borbal) whose provenance is exemplary 

worth a read alongside this discussion here 

https://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/threads/satterlee-load-development-thoughts-on-results.204775/page-5#post-1985779

 

There's some excellent stuff on Geoffry's website - already signposted in this thread by 1066.  Well worth a read

I think the Satterlee "method" is deeply flawed - statistically speaking,  drawing conclusions from tiny samples.  We've said all this before - for and against.  

[Montey]

The Satterlee method works for me I've gone back over existing loads that I developed the long way round by checking the Satterlee method against them in 243win 308 stalking rifle 308 FTR rifle. The point being I arrived at the same load.

my 300wsm open rifle came new with a lot of expensive load development already done for it as there were four rifles made all exactly the same spec for four Fclas open  shooters. Two rifles shot very well but two of us had pressure problems I had all ready tested my rifle at home using the Satterlee method so I went to the next node down the pressure scale and found a very accurate load I tested this load at home  the ES was superb and loeded  300 rounds I shot that load at Bisley in the 900y comp  Tuesday afternoon the week of the Europeans very very successfully.i used the load all week and was very pleased with my results.

 

This thread is about  barrel tuners something I will be playing with on the two new rifles I've got coming as soon I'm able to pick them up. My point is does one develope a load and then tune it with the tuner or is it that the tuner becomes a factor to be moved with every  change and step of the load development? I hope that makes sense? I would gues it's a case of set the tuner in the middle  develop a load and then tune it using the tuner? As Mick has built two identical rifles for himself there will be a lot of load  development already there and I will be following his lead however I still find it an interesting question.

 

[Twodogs]

2 hours ago, Montey said:

The Satterlee method works for me I've gone back over existing loads that I developed the long way round by checking the Satterlee method against them in 243win 308 stalking rifle 308 FTR rifle. The point being I arrived at the same load.

my 300wsm open rifle came new with a lot of expensive load development already done for it as there were four rifles made all exactly the same spec for four Fclas open  shooters. Two rifles shot very well but two of us had pressure problems I had all ready tested my rifle at home using the Satterlee method so I went to the next node down the pressure scale and found a very accurate load I tested this load at home  the ES was superb and loeded  300 rounds I shot that load at Bisley in the 900y comp  Tuesday afternoon the week of the Europeans very very successfully.i used the load all week and was very pleased with my results.

 

This thread is about  barrel tuners something I will be playing with on the two new rifles I've got coming as soon I'm able to pick them up. My point is does one develope a load and then tune it with the tuner or is it that the tuner becomes a factor to be moved with every  change and step of the load development? I hope that makes sense? I would gues it's a case of set the tuner in the middle  develop a load and then tune it using the tuner? As Mick has built two identical rifles for himself there will be a lot of load  development already there and I will be following his lead however I still find it an interesting question.

 

From my experience with .22 it seems to be find the best round then introduce the tuner. I appreciate it might be a totally different ballgame with CF.