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Moderator as barrel tuner


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Al, I'm confused as to what's guiding your thinking on the weight requirement?   

You mentioned that you reduced the EC's weight by 40% (presumably the maker thought 100% was the right weight?!)   and, in greater contrast,  the .22 pics show things the size of flower pots wrapped in lead.    Is everyone designing these things based on strongly held feelings in their water, or is there decent data?  What's the right weight?

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4 hours ago, Big Al said:

The muzzle brake needs to stay in the orientation its currently in to work properly, you dont want gases exiting downwards or it will cover you in dust and also try to lift the muzzle of the ground when shooting prone. Thats the reason there is a tuner fitted behind it. Also the muzzle brake is too heavy and has no means of making small accurate and repeatable movements which a good tuner needs to be able to do.

I did use a pepper pot muzzle brake as a tuner once, that worked but it had the correct thread and the nylon tipped set screws and fine increments so it was very much a tuner with a brake incorporated.

 

Yes I thought that would be the case , works in principle but not practice to a fine enough degree. 

Is there one on the market that will allow a moderator without machining the barrel eg clamp on.

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In Bill Calfee's book (The art of rimfire accuracy) he explains how he calculates the tuner weight and how much it should protrude past the barrel - He's very much a practical guy but does explain what he does and why he does it.

I find his writing style very irritating but it does contain a lot of information if you're interested in rimfire accuracy. . The results obtained by his rimfire rifles in BR competitions are amazing. 

 

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2 hours ago, brown dog said:

Al, I'm confused as to what's guiding your thinking on the weight requirement?   

You mentioned that you reduced the EC's weight by 40% (presumably the maker thought 100% was the right weight?!)   and, in greater contrast,  the .22 pics show things the size of flower pots wrapped in lead.    Is everyone designing these things based on strongly held feelings in their water, or is there decent data?  What's the right weight?

I can't speak for rimfire tuners BD as I have no experience of them although its clear they are much bigger/heavier than CF tuners.

I can only imagine the harmonic waves from a puny .22LR round in often a very stiff benchrest barrel is a lot duller (cant think of a better word) and so needs a more aggressive approach to changing/tuning those waves, the more weight you use the more aggressive your tuning becomes. Certainly when it comes to CF tuners it takes much less weight and movement to make a difference and the more I have tested the lighter mine have became and with better results.

What guides my thinking on CF tuners is the results of my own testing.

 

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17 minutes ago, Mark II said:

 

Is there one on the market that will allow a moderator without machining the barrel eg clamp on.

This is the only one I've seen - I made this collet clamp to use a tuner and a moderator as I didn't want to jump straight in and screwcut my shiny new lilja match barrel. This is on a rimfire, not sure I would want a clamp on one on a centrefire.

hf2banZm.png?19KozCA8l.png?5

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8 hours ago, 1066 said:

This is the only one I've seen - I made this collet clamp to use a tuner and a moderator as I didn't want to jump straight in and screwcut my shiny new lilja match barrel. This is on a rimfire, not sure I would want a clamp on one on a centrefire.

hf2banZm.png?19KozCA8l.png?5

Nice work was it successfully? 

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9 hours ago, Big Al said:

 

I can only imagine the harmonic waves from a puny .22LR round in often a very stiff benchrest barrel is a lot duller (cant think of a better word) and so needs a more aggressive approach to changing/tuning those waves, the more weight you use the more aggressive your tuning becomes. Certainly when it comes to CF tuners it takes much less weight and movement to make a difference and the more I have tested the lighter mine have became and with better results.

Makes sense 👍

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9 hours ago, 1066 said:

This is the only one I've seen - I made this collet clamp to use a tuner and a moderator as I didn't want to jump straight in and screwcut my shiny new lilja match barrel. This is on a rimfire, not sure I would want a clamp on one on a centrefire.

 

 

My mind's eye is visualising a moveable  sleeve weight on the moderator body as a .22 option(?) Perhaps a sort of choke tube slipped on and made to grip, with a threaded weight around it (?)

Another option would be a peel washer between mod and muzzle?

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3 hours ago, brown dog said:

 

My mind's eye is visualising a moveable  sleeve weight on the moderator body as a .22 option(?) Perhaps a sort of choke tube slipped on and made to grip, with a threaded weight around it (?)

Another option would be a peel washer between mod and muzzle?

I can't see why something simple wouldn't work. The Parker Hale .22 mods are quite slim and sturdy. You really need some fixed reference point and a means of making small repeatable adjustments.

IjJbTBSl.png

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1 hour ago, Mark II said:

Something simple like one or more of these might do the trick, just need a vernier to measure the distance so a bit more time consuming 

71GrYyHx7uL._AC_SL1069_.jpg

I suspect that'd be fine. Vernier? Just a mark and by eye - close enough for government work 😉

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  • 1 month later...

This is a bit weird as I stumbled down the rimfire tuner rabbit hole over Christmas and only just came across this. 
I’ve just got some 0.1 and 0.3mm washers (buggered if I could find peel washers this side of the pond) to see if I can “tune” using my mod on my RPRR.

At the end of the day my [lack of] ability will far outweigh any gains from a tuner in the real world but I’m really intrigued  

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I think the use of washers would work well for fine tuning, it really does take very little movement to change the tune once you have found a sweet spot. I use a 20 tpi thread with my homemade tuners, one whole turn gives 50 thou movement. A quarter of a turn (12 thou) or less either way is enough to change things. If you were going the washer route I think you would need a sliding weight for coarse tuning then tinker with the washers.

The further forward from the muzzle you are, the less weight you will need for coarse tuning.

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I've been experimenting over Christmas with a couple of home made tuners.

After looking at the frankly, stupid prices charged here, for the EC ones, I did some digging and came up with my own design.

M2bwhYZ.jpg

There is not much info out there, quite, simply, because there is not much to tell.

Tuners are simply a threaded piece of tube. Not difficult to make with a lathe, dividing head, and an engraving machine.

I aimed for a weight of around 4oz, but i used a finer thread than the yanks do.

bbTkgHi.jpg

Made one for a new 6.5 x 47 barrel for one of my AI's, and also one for my 6XC, which i'm currently working loads up for.

ZV3yMvc.jpg

Had the XC up to Diggle, and shot 2 shot at progressive targets, and 3 when they touched. It quite rapidly shows you how it works. I had 3 nodes in 10 clicks, each division being 10 degrees.

I was just going to shoot groups, and the trigger died.

Back yesterday, and proved the theory....works beautifully.

Pics later.

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7 hours ago, sean c said:

Nice one Dave. Potentially a British option then?

Who knows Sean.

One-offs are never a problem. Coming up with a size that would fit a range of barrel profiles and what tuner thread they could accept could be a bit of a challenge.

Getting them cnc machined would be the easy bit.

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5 hours ago, baldie said:

Who knows Sean.

One-offs are never a problem. Coming up with a size that would fit a range of barrel profiles and what tuner thread they could accept could be a bit of a challenge.

Getting them cnc machined would be the easy bit.

Looks bloomin good Dave. For a multifit option, and no extra barrel cutting/threading, why not thread the rear exterior of the brake and have the weight there? For extra mass, if needed,  the weight could extend back, reflex-style, over the barrel?

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1 hour ago, brown dog said:

Looks bloomin good Dave. For a multifit option, and no extra barrel cutting/threading, why not thread the rear exterior of the brake and have the weight there? For extra mass, if needed,  the weight could extend back, reflex-style, over the barrel?

The Kinetic Security Solutions ATS looks a good option to cover a range of profiles etc. Bonus that it can be used with most brakes and forward mounted mods as well. 

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8 hours ago, brown dog said:

Looks bloomin good Dave. For a multifit option, and no extra barrel cutting/threading, why not thread the rear exterior of the brake and have the weight there? For extra mass, if needed,  the weight could extend back, reflex-style, over the barrel?

Funnily enough Matt, one of the lads had a brake on his AR15 the other day, which had a tuner built in it.

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15 hours ago, baldie said:

Who knows Sean.

One-offs are never a problem. Coming up with a size that would fit a range of barrel profiles and what tuner thread they could accept could be a bit of a challenge.

Getting them cnc machined would be the easy bit.

I’d definitely be interested. Could you come up with something which rather than being threaded, used some sort of sleeves to get 95% of the fit and then tightened down? 

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