Bisley ELR Rifle.

[martin_b]

Gents I need to talk to my FAO about a couple of things and while Im about it I'd like to sound out putting another rifle on my ticket,  Ideally I want something that can shoot out to 2 miles (at eskdalemuir) but  I feel it would be easier to justify if I'm also able to shoot it at Bisley, (im a local) so a .338Lapau is out.

What calibre whould you suggest?

[John MH]

300 Norma Magnum but you need to check muzzle energy limits at Bisley, or 33XC as the FAO and Bisley won't know what that is.

[martin_b]

thanks.

[Scrumbag]

Think you can’t shoot more than 7,000 joules so think about that. Also as I understand it, anything that is 338 is not allowed

[Webley]

Being over the HME limit at Bisley means you have to jump through extra hoops to shoot. Anything over 4500J or 3319ft lb is classed as high muzzle energy there. Over 7000J is banned. You have to zero before you shoot, each day you shoot, while under the supervision of a HME qualified RCO. The Butt marker needs to be made aware that you are using something with HME so they wear extra PPE due to the splash.

Matt

[FB66]

Also for Bisley, you need HME  specifically stated on SSC. I asked at the range office re 33XC and told it was over 7K limit and a no.

Have to say so far this year when using my 300 WSM its been straight forward. The hard bit was getting HME on my NRA SCC.

Every time I have shown my SSC the card at the range office. Ask for the card, I have zeroed at zero butts, taken a photo of it and handed back the card to the range office before going to shoot, and been on Stix ready for the 8.30 hooter.  

Three shot group in the box is key to no hassle. They don't like shots walking up or down the paper.

The one below was for Imperial Meeting but there is a 300WInMag card too . It adds about 15 mins.

[Catch-22]

Sorry to hijack, but I’m keen to attend Stickledown at Bisley. 
I understand the HME limit is 7000J, which is less than standard .338LapMag loadings (around 6,500J).

But one of the posts above state .338LapMag aren’t permitted. 
So is that the case, anything up to 7000J is permitted just as long as it’s not a 338?

If so, will that rule out my .338 Norma Mag (6% less case capacity than the 338Lap - equates to around 6000J)?

Thanks

[dorg]

I built a 300rum as I had all the bits in the spares bin. I had to back the load off as it was doing 3260fps with a 230gn Berger, the maximum speed for this bullet to stay within 7000joules is 3175fps.

[Scrumbag]

9 minutes ago, Catch-22 said:

Sorry to hijack, but I’m keen to attend Stickledown at Bisley. 
I understand the HME limit is 7000J, which is less than standard .338LapMag loadings (around 6,500J).

But one of the posts above state .338LapMag aren’t permitted. 
So is that the case, anything up to 7000J is permitted just as long as it’s not a 338?

If so, will that rule out my .338 Norma Mag (6% less case capacity than the 338Lap - equates to around 6000J)?

Thanks

See rule 9 : https://nra.org.uk/nra-bisley/ranges/latest-range-information/range-regulations/

 

sucks I’m afraid

[Bianchi]

1 minute ago, Catch-22 said:

.... anything up to 7000J, just as long as it’s not a 338?

The calibre is the first KO factor since it’s game over above 8mm. Thought about getting one built for Bisley but the bullet selection for LR is limited.

[Bianchi]

1 minute ago, Bianchi said:

The calibre is the first KO factor since it’s game over above 8mm. Thought about getting one built for Bisley but the bullet selection for LR is limited.

Thanks @Scrumbag. Something has changed. Now no calibre limits for HME but .338s remain prohibited.

[Scrumbag]

8mm is only a limit for F-Class I think - it doesn't affect the whole of Bisley. You've been able to shoot upto.577 for some time

Scrummy

[Catch-22]

14 hours ago, Scrumbag said:

See rule 9 : https://nra.org.uk/nra-bisley/ranges/latest-range-information/range-regulations/

 

sucks I’m afraid

Balls - that does suck indeed. Ah well, I’ll just bring my other guns down.

Nay thanks for the info, super helpful! 👍

[meles meles]

Why the prohibition on .338" ?

[Triffid]

13 hours ago, meles meles said:

Why the prohibition on .338" ?

Because they are 'Specially Dangerous'. Like Brococks . . .

Triffid

[Catch-22]

13 hours ago, meles meles said:

Why the prohibition on .338" ?

Because the law is an ass

[Roy W]

1 hour ago, Catch-22 said:

Because the law is an ass

It's to do with the safety area. The military shoot .338 at Bisley, but the NRA deem them to be more responsible and less likely to send one over the top of the backstop.

Having seen some of the club shooters at Bisley, I am inclined to agree with their caution! 

[Catch-22]

15 minutes ago, Roy W said:

It's to do with the safety area. The military shoot .338 at Bisley, but the NRA deem them to be more responsible and less likely to send one over the top of the backstop.

Having seen some of the club shooters at Bisley, I am inclined to agree with their caution! 

😂 You’re not wrong!

I remember once on a range, that I won’t mention, witnessing at least one shooter after me doing the HME test and failing to even get it on the target backer, let alone on paper and in the required box. I think they were about 3ft above the target. 🙄

[Triffid]

I don't think that it's anything to do with the safety area. There are other calibres and chamberings with ballistics on a par with the .338 which are permitted simply because they are not .338. And the .338 itself fits within the HME bracket at Bisley (assuming 250gn at 3,000 fps).

So therefore the .338 must be specially dangerous.

Triffid

[meles meles]

Hmmm, so if we were to turn up with a less dangerous rifle, chambered in, say, 8.58 x 69mm ?

[Scrumbag]

I heard actually it's to do with how high the powerful .338s will get for air danger space.

(NB Not my nationale)

[FB66]

I asked why the 338LM  is banned on my SSC  last year and was told its a military calibre like 50 cal and just far too dangerous fo Bisley.  

Mike

[Triffid]

9 hours ago, meles meles said:

Hmmm, so if we were to turn up with a less dangerous rifle, chambered in, say, 8.58 x 69mm ?

Or how about a 33 Nosler?

[Catch-22]

1 hour ago, Triffid said:

Or how about a 33 Nosler?

I think the rule is that anything classed .338 cal is a no no.
I have a .338 Norma Mag and that’s seemingly a no. If that’s the case, then I can only think anything .338cal,  like a .338WM, 33Nosler, .338-06 etc are also all no no.
It makes no logical sense what so ever. By their rules even a .338 Federal (308w case necked up to .338cal) is a no no due to ‘safety’ reasons.

 

[John MH]

Extract from Bisley Range Rules

Quote

 

Limits as to Calibre, Muzzle Velocity and Muzzle Energy

6. No firearm and ammunition combination which develops a muzzle energy exceeding 7000 J (5160 ft lb) may be used on any of the Bisley ranges without the specific permission of the CE which must be sought in writing well in advance of the planned use. The following limits apply:

a. Rifle ranges, no specific calibre limitation but:

i. a maximum muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (3280 ft/s)
ii. a maximum muzzle energy of 4500 J (3319 ft lb);

b. Gallery Rifle and Pistol ranges, no specific calibre limitation but:

i. a maximum muzzle velocity of 655 m/s (2150 ft/s)
ii. a maximum muzzle energy of 2030 J (1496 ft lb).

c. High Muzzle Energy (HME) firearms no specific calibre limitation but:

i. a maximum muzzle velocity of 1000 m/s (3280 ft/s)
ii. a maximum muzzle energy of 7000 J (5160 ft lb).

 

Additional Limits on High Muzzle Energy (HME) Firearms

8. A High Muzzle Energy (HME) Firearm is defined as any firearm which, using a particular round, develops a muzzle energy (ME) in excess of 4500 J (3319 ft lb). The HME zeroing procedure must be carried out before they may be fired on any range at Bisley. The firearm may be zeroed:

a. on the Zero Range using a special target supplied by the Range Office.

b. under control of an RCO (HME) at the start of the practice for shooting at 200 yards or less .

c. at a distance of 200 yards on a special target under the direction of an RCO (HME) (see paragraph 39 below) prior to shooting at greater distances.

9. Rifles chambered for .338” may not be fired on the Bisley Ranges

 

What does "Rifles chambered for .338” may not be fired on the Bisley Ranges" its too vague, .338 is a bore diameter and not a specific chambering. It's likely that they meant anything similar to .338 Lapua Magnum when they wrote it but things change over time and new chamberings are developed and introduced i.e. 33XC.

I recall it was a knee jerk reaction based on Air Danger Height at the time. The military changed their regulations and required specific training for 8.6mm ammunition (.338 Lapua).

From DSA 03.OME Part 3 Volume 2 (V1.0)

23. Air Danger Height. The Air Danger Height (ADH) is the maximum height above ground level (AGL) which a hazard may exist (see Notes 1 and 2). Table 1 below gives ADH for SA ammunition .

Notes:

Table 1 - SA Ammunition ADH

1.   The ADH is either the highest point of an aimed shot measured from the firing position or its maximum ricochet height. 

2.   An ADH is measured in feet (ft) AGL. Altitude is measured in ft Above Mean Sea Level (AMSL). 

3.   For High Elevation Fire (HEF) (QE 150 - 1250 mils, Fig 15 - 3) the ADH provided should be applied when the Cone of Fire is not captured by the ground. 

4.   7.62mm ball may be fired with an ADH of 500ft providing an air sentry is provided and the air sentry has clear vision of the air space over the range. The minimum Duties of Air Sentries are given in Pamphlet 21. 

5.   8.6mm ammunition may be fired with an ADH of 500ft on LFMT ranges provided that the sniper progression of training and authorised sniper practices are adhered to.

Bisley shares the same Danger Area as MoD Pirbright Ranges so same/similar rules apply, civilians cannot comply with Note 5 above as they have not completed the 'sniper progression of training', another additional complication is that British Army Snipers do train on Bisley Ranges.  Note 5 above applies to all LFMT MoD Ranges so is nationwide, however, its all about 8.6mm Ball Ammunition and the NRA have tried generalised it.

Here ends the lesson for today.