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saddler

Incompetent RFD

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16 hours ago, saddler said:

Still very confused WHY a supposed knowledgable RFD, who I have dealt with for well over 3 decades, would decide to surrender a rifle, that was not their property to do as they please with, because they thought it was "illegally held". Have a few legal treats being lined up for them as a result of their inabliklty to comply with the laws of the land & good busininess practice

I suppose that the only reasonable explanation is that said RFD has never before seen an unproved private import firearm; and therefore jumped to conclusions about unlawful actions.

The issue could also have arisen with those who do their own barrel fitting (I think that there are a few on here), since there is also no legal requirement for those rifles to be proved until they are sold or exchanged.

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What is most scary in all of this is, "what else has this RFD done...?". The apparent lack of knowledge around legislation and procedure is worrying. I do wonder how many of their own interpretations have been applied to the detriment of someone who has seen this dealer as the "expert".

And the readiness to discard someone's property without a second thought for the owner is truly shocking! There is an argument that their actions would fall under the Theft Act given the disregard for the proprietary interest of other parties and treated the item as if it was their own...

Then couple that with the average FEO... I fear that rifle has already seen the chop saw of a police "armourer".

 

 

 

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I'm amused in this thread by the way the term 'RFD' keeps being used as though it implies qualifications,  specialist knowledge or even a brain ... it implies none of the above 

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1 hour ago, Shuggy said:

I suppose that the only reasonable explanation is that said RFD has never before seen an unproved private import firearm; and therefore jumped to conclusions about unlawful actions.

The issue could also have arisen with those who do their own barrel fitting (I think that there are a few on here), since there is also no legal requirement for those rifles to be proved until they are sold or exchanged.

That might be the explanation of what happened but it in no way mitigates / is a legitimate defense for the utter cluster the RFD brough about by acting incompetently.

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I agree!

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2 hours ago, brown dog said:

I'm amused in this thread by the way the term 'RFD' keeps being used as though it implies qualifications,  specialist knowledge or even a brain ... it implies none of the above 

It does in fact imply they are, due to their profession, the subject experts. That implication is simply deduced by their position. It is the facts that illustrate they are not. And considering how difficult it appears to obtain registered dealer status, is why incidents of this are so disheartening. 
 

it’s been a slippery slope for a couple of decades now. Quality service from efficient and knowledgeable dealers is a thing of the past. Come to think of it, you can’t even have a half decent conversation about guns or ammo with most of the places that have a GTA sticker in the window!

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Is it possible that the RFD asked for advice via his local Firearms Liscensing office  and they told him to surrender the gun ? I know it was wrong but ive seen sec 5 being handed to a non sec 5 dealer and the police going mental as he broke the rules (he imformed the local police within the hour )   my feo didnt realise cm could stand for creedmore  not centimetres ... So where do you go for guidance ?

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1 hour ago, Dellboy said:

 ... So where do you go for guidance ?

Here of course !

😁

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3 hours ago, Dellboy said:

Is it possible that the RFD asked for advice via his local Firearms Liscensing office  and they told him to surrender the gun ? I know it was wrong but ive seen sec 5 being handed to a non sec 5 dealer and the police going mental as he broke the rules (he imformed the local police within the hour )   my feo didnt realise cm could stand for creedmore  not centimetres ... So where do you go for guidance ?


Doubtful

THEY seem to have been the ones to push for it to be surrendered for destruction due to it being "...an illegal gun...", so contact with the Police was from them
Bear in mind, my ONLY contact from the RFD on the day, was a 09:15 phone call to say that THEY were not happy about shipping it to Proof as it was not legal, but would store it for me so I could sort another RFD out.
Next I knew was MY lunchtime call to them, to say which RFD to ship it to - at which point they said that MY personal property had been surrendered of to the Police - no 2nd phone call, no contact of any sort. If I had not called them again I doubt I would ever have heard from them & my property would likely have been cut up for scrap as said RFD deemed themselves solely responsible for it

 

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1 hour ago, Popsbengo said:

Here of course !

😁

 now youve done it 

 

 Got a customer for an AI  in 308  plus a 6.5 barrel  all good so far

He shoots mostly Bisley

He works in the UK  95% of the time

Wants to pick it up from me

But he has a NI liscence

so can i cant i ?

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1 minute ago, saddler said:


Doubtful

THEY seem to have been the ones to push for it to be surrendered for destruction due to it being "...an illegal gun...", so contact with the Police was from them
Bear in mind, my ONLY contact from the RFD on the day, was a 09:15 phone call to say that THEY were not happy about shipping it to Proof as it was not legal, but would store it for me so I could sort another RFD out.
Next I knew was MY lunchtime call to them, to say which RFD to ship it to - at which point they said that MY personal property had been surrendered of to the Police - no 2nd phone call, no contact of any sort. If I had not called them again I doubt I would ever have heard from them & my property would likely have been cut up for scrap as said RFD deemed themselves solely responsible for it

 

If you have a receipt for storage and/or transportation then they are in breach of contract so owe you for your losses ..

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1 minute ago, Dellboy said:

If you have a receipt for storage and/or transportation then they are in breach of contract so owe you for your losses ..

YIP

....Breach of Contract is one of the treats I have lined up

THAT is one of the things that has pissed me off - they accepted the gun without any drama - happily took my money, etc.

Even IF they had decided it was a no go having slept on it, I would have expected a call regarding the agreed shipping booked & fee paid.
Zilch....

spiral staircaseing amateurs
 

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17 minutes ago, saddler said:

YIP

....Breach of Contract is one of the treats I have lined up

THAT is one of the things that has pissed me off - they accepted the gun without any drama - happily took my money, etc.

Even IF they had decided it was a no go having slept on it, I would have expected a call regarding the agreed shipping booked & fee paid.
Zilch....

spiral staircaseing amateurs
 

 I try not to make mistakes ( or put them right if i do asap)  i am lucky on having been able to ask advice from at least 2 rfd on here  plus i have a good relationship with a couple near me . i do have 2 sensible people at my issuing station . Sadly there isnt a go to place as its all by interpretation i suppose ..

Was going to offer to pick it up but its a long drive  lol

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2 minutes ago, Dellboy said:

 I try not to make mistakes ( or put them right if i do asap)  i am lucky on having been able to ask advice from at least 2 rfd on here  plus i have a good relationship with a couple near me . i do have 2 sensible people at my issuing station . Sadly there isnt a go to place as its all by interpretation i suppose ..

Was going to offer to pick it up but its a long drive  lol

...but it's a lovely sunny day - ideal weather for champagne cocktails & things on sticks as you are motoring up the M1

May even offer a fish finger sandwich as compensation for all the red diesel you'd have to use to get here

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11 minutes ago, saddler said:

...but it's a lovely sunny day - ideal weather for champagne cocktails & things on sticks as you are motoring up the M1

May even offer a fish finger sandwich as compensation for all the red diesel you'd have to use to get here

Red diesel   its Essex  that means veg oil  in the tank ....

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I think this where the GTA should do a better job of advising its members though the members would have to listen to advice.

In terms of getting your gun back, get your association on it. NGO / BASC / SACS whoever you are with write it all out to them and follow up with a phone call. I'd have thought they'd have been all over this.

Scrummy

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1 minute ago, Dellboy said:

Red diesel   its Essex  that means veg oil  in the tank ....

Veg., in Essex?
Assume it's only found in the form of "Frozen chips"?

Sure ya don't mean chip fat? Also makes a handy personal lubricant for the Estuary types, so I hear...

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15 hours ago, saddler said:

Veg., in Essex?
Assume it's only found in the form of "Frozen chips"?

Sure ya don't mean chip fat? Also makes a handy personal lubricant for the Estuary types, so I hear...

Weve all gone healthy not a deep fat fried mars bar in sight .....

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1 minute ago, Scrumbag said:

I think this where the GTA should do a better job of advising its members though the members would have to listen to advice.

In terms of getting your gun back, get your association on it. NGO / BASC / SACS whoever you are with write it all out to them and follow up with a phone call. I'd have thought they'd have been all over this.

Scrummy

One of the mates I consulted over this fiasco IS a proper real working gunsmith type RFD
Many decades ago, in days of handguns, he was known for his highly crafted handmade race guns.
He was very skilled and had a following among the Bisley crowd....so he applied to join the GTA
Their reply "oh - we don't want YOUR SORT in the GTA"
Decades pass - he's still trading, but doing hand-made parts & repairs to best London type shotguns & other sporting rifles
The GTA contact him - "Oh, we don't seem to have a record of you being one of our members..."
So HE told them the name of the person he had been refused membership by some decades past & informed them which orifice the application form would best be suited for....

 

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1 hour ago, saddler said:

One of the mates I consulted over this fiasco IS a proper real working gunsmith type RFD
Many decades ago, in days of handguns, he was known for his highly crafted handmade race guns.
He was very skilled and had a following among the Bisley crowd....so he applied to join the GTA
Their reply "oh - we don't want YOUR SORT in the GTA"
Decades pass - he's still trading, but doing hand-made parts & repairs to best London type shotguns & other sporting rifles
The GTA contact him - "Oh, we don't seem to have a record of you being one of our members..."
So HE told them the name of the person he had been refused membership by some decades past & informed them which orifice the application form would best be suited for....

 

Maybe you should have gone through him...........less hassle

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14 minutes ago, Roy W said:

Maybe you should have gone through him...........less hassle

....you've not met him!

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21 hours ago, Shuggy said:

I suppose that the only reasonable explanation is that said RFD has never before seen an unproved private import firearm; and therefore jumped to conclusions about unlawful actions.

The issue could also have arisen with those who do their own barrel fitting (I think that there are a few on here), since there is also no legal requirement for those rifles to be proved until they are sold or exchanged.

It always intrigues me where these "unproved" guns are shot ?

Because if you on an approved home office/NRA range, I'll bet a pound to a pinch of S*it , you are not insured. Nor would you be on private land either.

Certainly not by range insurance.

I have a special clause in my own RFD insurance, SPECIFICALLY to shoot unproved guns, and it was expensive.

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That’s an excellent point. And speaking personally, if I possessed one of these guns, I would want it proofed for sure. However, I am pretty sure that there are a few unproved guns in use in the field and on ranges where the owners have not asked themselves that question.

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1 hour ago, baldie said:

It always intrigues me where these "unproved" guns are shot ?

Because if you on an approved home office/NRA range, I'll bet a pound to a pinch of S*it , you are not insured. Nor would you be on private land either.

Certainly not by range insurance.

I have a special clause in my own RFD insurance, SPECIFICALLY to shoot unproved guns, and it was expensive.

I think you'll find that's not quite true. No where in, for example, Bisley Range Regulations or any MoD Range Regulations, does it state that a firearm must be in 'proof' to be used. Take for example international competitors from the USA  who come here to shoot the Palma or even F Class, their firearms originate in the USA and are not subject to 'Proof' yet are used legally and are fully covered by range insurance.

From an 'Non-Destructive Test' engineering stand point proofing with an overpressure 'oiled round' is a crude strength test that could over stress and weaken a firearm to just below where it would catastrophically fail such that in normal use it will fail at some point, I very much doubt if proofing fireams meets any of the principles of pressure testing that I have to comply with at work. 

Proofing is like an MoT, only a check valid at the time it was done, a far higher risk to life and limb, on any range, are some of the more dodgy and negligent reloading practices used by some people. In fact can anyone cite a case where a firearm failed in an unsafe way due to it being out of 'proof'.

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50 minutes ago, John MH said:

I think you'll find that's not quite true. No where in, for example, Bisley Range Regulations or any MoD Range Regulations, does it state that a firearm must be in 'proof' to be used. Take for example international competitors from the USA  who come here to shoot the Palma or even F Class, their firearms originate in the USA and are not subject to 'Proof' yet are used legally and are fully covered by range insurance.

From an 'Non-Destructive Test' engineering stand point proofing with an overpressure 'oiled round' is a crude strength test that could over stress and weaken a firearm to just below where it would catastrophically fail such that in normal use it will fail at some point, I very much doubt if proofing fireams meets any of the principles of pressure testing that I have to comply with at work. 

Proofing is like an MoT, only a check valid at the time it was done, a far higher risk to life and limb, on any range, are some of the more dodgy and negligent reloading practices used by some people. In fact can anyone cite a case where a firearm failed in an unsafe way due to it being out of 'proof'.

I agree with your points,  I've never really understood the logic in this modern world for such a crude NDT - it belongs back in the 19th Century.  The usefulness is probably in that it's easy.  No adapters etc to do hydrostatic over pressure testing.

This is what we do for steam generation boilers (or huge bombs if not maintained)::

"Test Pressures
The selected test method and fluid test medium, together with the applicable code, will also establish the rules to be followed in calculating the required test pressure. In most cases a pressure greater than the design pressure rating is applied for a short duration, say at least 10 minutes. The magnitude of this initial test pressure is often at least 1.5 times the design pressure rating for a hydrostatic test. However, it may be different, depending upon which code is applicable and whether the test is hydrostatic or pneumatic.
Furthermore, the test pressure must never exceed a pressure that would cause yielding, or the maximum allowable test pressure of some component exposed to the test. In the case of ASME B31, section 137.1.4, and the Boiler and Pressure Vessel Codes, the maximum test pressure must not exceed 90 percent of yield for any component exposed to the test. The test pressure is needed to demonstrate that the system can safely withstand the rated pressure. Following this period of greater than design pressure, it is often permissible to reduce the pressure to a lower value for examination of leaks. The examination pressure is maintained for the length of time necessary to conduct a thorough test. "

There's far more risk in negligently home loaded ammunition.

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