22 LR Average Group from your gun

[Adamdavi3s]

On 6/26/2021 at 6:47 AM, terryh said:

Ad3

Nice efforts re testing. Think the 22rf needs a bit more attention to deliver the best out of it.

Be interesting to see your results at 100, if your initial findings follow thru 🤔

have you decided on what method to set up your tuner, just about to set up a new rifle a d tuner myself, have used the Purdey Rx  previously but think the Hopewell looks more ‘solid’?

Can I ask where you obtained the the G3 rim to ogive tool?

Good luck

Terry

 

I agree, I spend time working up loads for my centre fires so why not for the rimfire which I spend more time shooting at the moment! The gauge was an import from Neconos who just happened to have a new batch of them. 

I had a very quick fiddle with the tuner just to see if it made any difference, I definitely detuned the rifle just fine!! I need more time to play as I’m throwing too many variables around at once now! 
Really I need to reconfirm the sorting results again at 50 and then at 100 and then introduce the tuner.
 

I shot some groups at 100, but there are still rounds going where they shouldn’t, if you know what I mean, you hear it and you just know it’s going to be off. 

One group was .6” at 100 but that was a one off, most are around the inch.

I shot the mini f-class targets in a bit of a rush which gave me 10shot groups in the 1.3” region, we did have some very light gusts which could account for some of the lateral movement, plus human factors (i.e me flinching etc)

My next steps are

 

1- measure up a new batch and tighten up my tolerances, previously I’d take anything from say 0.0245 to 0.254 and call that “0.025”. I’m then going to sort these by rim thickness by using a hornady gauge as well. 

2- shoot these at both 50 and 100 along with control groups on the stillest possible day I can get

3- see if I can make a consistent difference with the tuner at 50 (I’ll be using hopewell) 

4- see if the tuned rifle can handle a wider variation of seating depths 

 

I’m aiming for consistent 1 MOA results, maybe I am dreaming with the RPRR

[terryh]

Ad3

Tuner once setup should make the groups ‘rounder’, least that has been my previous experience.

Thank you re Neco, might try to sort one?

Have you looked at concentricity gauging using something like the Nielsen tool? Having measured some reasonable quality ammo found a good few that were outliers.

T

[Adamdavi3s]

1 hour ago, terryh said:

Ad3

Tuner once setup should make the groups ‘rounder’, least that has been my previous experience.

Thank you re Neco, might try to sort one?

Have you looked at concentricity gauging using something like the Nielsen tool? Having measured some reasonable quality ammo found a good few that were outliers.

T

I had considered the hornady concentricity tool…. But I’ve got enough variables at the moment! 
 

I can recommend the gauge, it doesn’t take long to sort the ammo and I’m pretty sure it’s an improvement, but it’s not cheap.
I’m wondering if the gauge and tuner are kind of overkill and you don’t need both… but let’s see! 
 

[terryh]

The concentricity gauge is for the munitions, the tuner is for the rifle, think they are mutually exclusive. 
 

Do not think normal CF concentricity gauges work well with 22rf ammunition, least not without a bit of faffing. The Nielsen is designed specifically for rf and as such is easy to process swiftly.

[Adamdavi3s]

9 hours ago, terryh said:

The concentricity gauge is for the munitions, the tuner is for the rifle, think they are mutually exclusive. 
 

 

I hadn’t considered that actually, I just assumed that sorting ammo could only make x difference and the tuner might not improve that, but you’re right of course and the two working together should be the best outcome.
I’m just not sure if I’m throwing good money after bad with the RPRR, it’s hardly a top grade rifle, but it’s fun finding out! 

[terryh]

3 hours ago, Adamdavi3s said:

I hadn’t considered that actually, I just assumed that sorting ammo could only make x difference and the tuner might not improve that, but you’re right of course and the two working together should be the best outcome.
I’m just not sure if I’m throwing good money after bad with the RPRR, it’s hardly a top grade rifle, but it’s fun finding out! 

^this^ is I feel all part of it 😀

Looking forward to playing once I get my paws on my rifle.

[No i deer]

Just buy half a dozen different makes and try them and see which shoots best.. that's what I did and the eley match were superb..

That's the best my CZ452 has shot in 20 years of owning it

[terryh]

NiD

Concur That is the starting point 👌😎

[One on top of two]

My local has just started to stock SK , about 6 different ones to try so I will be out as well in the near future. Just need some nice weather and a few hours of play time . 
 

it’s all good fun .

[terryh]

OoTo2

Ive had my rifle cambered to suit Laura/SK so have a few of these in hand to get going with.

Couple of rifke projects on the go so looking fwd to doing some faffing around 😎

[Adamdavi3s]

7 hours ago, No i deer said:

Just buy half a dozen different makes and try them and see which shoots best.. that's what I did and the eley match were superb..

That's the best my CZ452 has shot in 20 years of owning it

Yep that was the starting point! I think my list was 

Team, Match, SK Standard Plus, SK Long Range Match, Contact, RWS R100, Action, RWS HP subs 

[ds1]

Number 1 daughter is home from uni. She decided to take me to the range and kick my ass. Having not shot for a year I thought she did really well. Rifle .22lr Sako Finnfire Range, scope Meopta 4-16x44 Artemis, ammunition Eley Tenex. Prone position.

Targets 50m, 18mm patches.

Top row daughters target. Targets left to right. First target 1 minute max time, then next 3 targets max 30 seconds each for 5 shots on each target.

Bottom row. Me, Targets left to right First target 1 minute max time, then 30 seconds 20 seconds and 10 seconds for 5 shots on each target.

 

[terryh]

Started on the ammo testing at 50 yards. the rifle like Lapua/SK which is about right as the chamber's to Nevius's spec

Biggest limitation will be me, holding consistently is going to be my first hurdle, keep pulling a shot.

The New SK flat nose match was pretty good, did not like Tenex but my gut says I'd not shot enough to swap the different bullet lubes?

All shot from the bench, rifle was as delivered from the Smith, tuner installed but wound right in.

the 50 yards range might not be 'up' for sorting the tuner , think I'll use the local indoor 100yard as this will amplify differences?

 

 

[Adamdavi3s]

On 7/10/2021 at 2:33 PM, terryh said:

 

the 50 yards range might not be 'up' for sorting the tuner , think I'll use the local indoor 100yard as this will amplify differences?

 

 

Is there much point in tuning those? 🤣

My understanding is that you tune to a range, it never made a lot of sense to me but apparently a 50y tune can be different to a 100y tune with the same rifle and ammo 

 

[terryh]

Think the grouping is currently all down to me! Bit like my old school reports - 'could do better' 

My understanding re tuners and from previous experience with a Harrel's tuner is it made the barrel 'dead'.

The groups at 25, 50 and 100 were better, more round, less 'odd one out' (that bugger that spoils a 5 shot group 😒).

Also ammunition tolerance was improved, not saying totally different ammunition make/model, just similar ammunition. 

Now I've a Ezell particle damper on this rifle -  going to start playing this Friday, will revert with results, we will see 😉

T

[1066]

You might find these two short videos interesting - These tuners are now becoming quite common among the top level smallbore shooters.

This is a consecutive series of 4 targets shot at 50m (Note: Open sight, sling supported) Not my targets I hasten to add, I hope David Phelps won't mind me using the photo as a example of what we are trying to achieve.

[terryh]

1066

interesting videos 🤔 Tuner plus a ‘bloop tube’.

Was there not some discussion/ ideas re the bullet emerging  into still air as being advantageous.

Yes single tight group/one hole at 50 is the goal - consistently 

Terry

[Scotch_egg]

I’m late to the party. Has there been mention of barrel length aiding accuracy?

I am looking into a 16” or 20” Tikka T1X. 
 

 

[1066]

13 minutes ago, Scotch_egg said:

I’m late to the party. Has there been mention of barrel length aiding accuracy?

I am looking into a 16” or 20” Tikka T1X. 

 

 

As with most things rimfire there seems to be several often conflicting opinions. According to the legendary benchrest rifle builder Bill Calfee - longer is better, but when cutting the barrel the muzzle must be at the tightest part of the bore, even if it means reduced length.
Mr Anschutz say his barrels should never be chopped from the muzzle end.

On the other hand - good quality target pistols can shoot very tight groups with only 4-5" of barrel.
I don't think there would be much difference either way between the 16" or 20" with the T1X, a good 16" will outshoot an average 20" and vice versa.

[ds1]

Terry, I was watching some of the Ste Gough vids at the Eley test centre. Looks like the best 10 shot groups were around 12mm and 17mm for 40 shot groups @ 50m. Lot selection was making at least 2mm difference. 

Real world with limited lot selection 15mm 10 shot groups @ 50m must be getting to about the best achievable.

 I’m going to try Center X and Midas to see if I can improve on the Tenex when I get bored of more exciting stuff like watching paint dry.

 

[Scotch_egg]

Factory certainly is a gamble. If I bought a 20” that didn’t shoot it could be shortened. 
 

 

[1066]

2 hours ago, terryh said:

1066

interesting videos 🤔 Tuner plus a ‘bloop tube’.

Was there not some discussion/ ideas re the bullet emerging  into still air as being advantageous.

Yes single tight group/one hole at 50 is the goal - consistently 

Terry

Bloop tubes have been used in competition for around 20 years - The main reason they are used is to increase the sight radius when shooting with iron sights. However, it's also claimed to improve accuracy. The idea of the "still air" theory seems valid but there's also a school of thought that they should be tuned in length - much as you would when tuning a two-stroke racing motorcycle.

I think there may be mileage in designing some sort of "air stripper" as is becoming quite common on match grade air rifles.
Searching for extreme accuracy with the humble .22lr certainly seems more an art than a science. 

[Scotch_egg]

Do you still measure “rim” thickness?

[1066]

4 minutes ago, ds1 said:

Terry, I was watching some of the Ste Gough vids at the Eley test centre. Looks like the best 10 shot groups were around 12mm and 17mm for 40 shot groups @ 50m. Lot selection was making at least 2mm difference. 

Real world with limited lot selection 15mm 10 shot groups @ 50m must be getting to about the best achievable.

 

Just to note, as I guess you all know - the group sizes on the Eley test batches are measured "outside to outside" not C to C as we do in centrefire.

[terryh]

1066

There are certainly a lot of conflicting theories out there. It seems to be split between old school Calfee and the upstarts like Vudoo who are challenging the norm ( and certainly seem to be getting good results 🤔).

Distances that 22rfs are shot, being stretched. To me going 100,200 and 300 seem sensible. When I see 500 and 1000 it feels like you a lobbing lead? I’m going to be trying 500 next week so will see how it goes or how others who do this regularly get on. 
Barrel length  seems to hold mystique, ‘ ooo the bullet is slowing down etc’. As you say target pistols had pretty short barrels , the GSP could not have been much more that 4” and they shot very well, as did their 32 S&W.

Twist and number of grooves is also in there. The accepted 1:16 has been there since BP days. Believe current BR records in US is held by a 2 groove but German target rifles are multi groove and shoot. Who knows 🤷🏼‍♂️ 

knew the sight rad. thing re bloop tubes, the tuning not thought too much about ( Purdey Rx??). Still air, well the tuner gives this. Air strippers , hum, interesting .

Mr Egg,

From crude measuring rim thickness on quality ammo does not seem to vary much but I’m going to play with measuring concentricity, seating depth ( as in consistent rifling engagement) and rim thickness in my quest.

Good fun stuff.

Terry