Bullets for deer

[Bambi-basher]

Mind you technically A max etc I dont think are deer legal.

 

A

 

The Hornady manual the say words to the effect that "A-Max bullets are a excellent choice of bullet for thin skinned game"

 

I am not quite sure were that leaves you legally but ethically I would have no issues.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[col48]

The Hornady manual the say words to the effect that "A-Max bullets are a excellent choice of bullet for thin skinned game"

 

I am not quite sure were that leaves you legally but ethically I would have no issues.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

 

The law now states clearly that the bullet has to be designed to expand in a controlled manner. when i have more time i will put the link up.

but it basically puts pay to the hole argument about match and varmint bullets for deer.

 

ATB

Colin

[Bambi-basher]

The law now states clearly that the bullet has to be designed to expand in a controlled manner. when i have more time i will put the link up.

but it basically puts pay to the hole argument about match and varmint bullets for deer.

 

ATB

Colin

 

Hi Col

 

To quote direct from the Hornady Handbook sixth edition page 41, With regards to the A-Max bullet:-

"This bullet is also excellent for hunting thin-skinned game."

 

I think we can safely say that Hornady know what is required for a bullet to be effective on game IE a bullet that expands in a controlled manner.

 

If the bullet manufacture recommends its use, who are we to argue the facts that we know their product better than Hornady themselves.

 

For the record I have never used a A-Max on deer, I use SSTs or Noslers. But I do find there Recommendation interesting.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[col48]

Hi Col

 

To quote direct from the Hornady Handbook sixth edition page 41, With regards to the A-Max bullet:-

"This bullet is also excellent for hunting thin-skinned game."

 

I think we can safely say that Hornady know what is required for a bullet to be effective on game IE a bullet that expands in a controlled manner.

 

If the bullet manufacture recommends its use, who are we to argue the facts that we know their product better than Hornady themselves.

 

For the record I have never used a A-Max on deer, I use SSTs or Noslers. But I do find there Recommendation interesting.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

 

 

they are ether match or they are not, hornady do not write the UK firearms laws.

hornady are in the USA and what they do over there has no Bering what so ever over here.

 

so please get your facts right before you spout off,this kind of wrong information should not be put up on the net.there are a lot of people that use this type of site for information. and advising someone to use match ammo on UK deer is just ######

 

 

ATB

Colin

[Bambi-basher]

they are ether match or they are not, hornady do not write the UK firearms laws.

hornady are in the USA and what they do over there has no Bering what so ever over here.

 

so please get your facts right before you spout off,this kind of wrong information should not be put up on the net.there are a lot of people that use this type of site for information. and advising someone to use match ammo on UK deer is just ######

 

 

ATB

Colin

 

Col my facts are right I am not making anything up. I quote directly from the Hornady manual ,page ect what more do you want? Get yourself a copy if you think I am bullsh1ting......................... Then say sorry kev.

 

Hornady are saying they are suitable for both, why is that a contradiction?

 

If the manufactures says it is suitable for use on game which expert witness is going to stand up in court and say he knows better than the bullet manufacture?

 

The use of "match" or "game" bullet is just a term it does not alter the actual construction of the bullet.

 

Not all members that post are from the UK.

 

Does that mean that if you were to import A-Max into the UK as “section 5 expanding ammo” it makes them suitable for use on deer, but if you bring them in as target ammo they are not suitable?

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[menial 1]

A-Max work just fine for deer of all sizes. My 85grn Sierra SP's with Varminter emblazoned right across the box lid have never failed to kill everything I've ever pointed them at, that goes from rats to reds. Scenar's, Berger match and most quality hollow tips will expand reliably to a certain degree, some better than others. One of our farmer's allows us to use freshly dead cattle to experiment on and the results from so called match ammunition is a surprise as to just how much and in the manner they do expand on contact with flesh and bone as opposed to just paper. FMJ's do exactly as expected and were found to leave narrow wound channels, and when striking heavy bone they would often exit the carcass at all sorts of angles, so they're no longer of any interest in our trials. If we didn't experiment, we'd probably still be clubbing things to death to get our dinner.

Pete.

[Guest northernchris]

Never had a problem with the "Swede" and "match bullets"for putting things on the ground,i have used one over the last 20 odd years and even with match bullets its never left me wanting for much else.

 

As for V-maxs and deer they put Roe down just loverly when i am up over the Border with my .22-250.

[shootingbags]

My view on the subject of deer legal bullets is that as far as I know , the deer act doesn't stipulate that you have to use bullets marketed for 'use on deer' and can't use bullets that are marketed as 'match' bullets. What it does stipulate is that the bullet must expand in a controlled manner. What is a controlled manner ? V-max expand in a controlled manner - granted it is very quickly but nevertherless it is still controlled !

 

Until there is a test case in court then I do not think anybody can say that you can or can't use a particular hollow point bullet on deer.

[Alycidon]

I have also had no problem with Barts FBHP bullets on Roe and Muntjac. Every one has dropped on the spot although I do limit the range.

 

A

[col48]

i have a meat clever that kills them but it don't make them legal.

[20ppc]

i have a meat clever that kills them but it don't make them legal.

 

Hi Col,

 

I seem to remember that we have been here before, As far as the authorities are concerned the only bullets not designed to expand in a controlled manner are military ball or FMJ, any arguments on whether its section 5 or not are purely academic and have no real bearing on any possibility of a prosecution by CPS.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

[col48]

Hi Col,

 

I seem to remember that we have been here before, As far as the authorities are concerned the only bullets not designed to expand in a controlled manner are military ball or FMJ, any arguments on whether its section 5 or not are purely academic and have no real bearing on any possibility of a prosecution by CPS.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

 

nick you are wrong and have been proven wrong on this before.

it now clearly states that you must use a bullet that has been designed to expand in a predictable and controlled manner.the paper all so states that all bullets will expand if they hit a hard enough surface,but this is not acceptable.

 

i have posted the link on her before and as soon as i have time i will again,but i have not got time at present to look for it.

 

ATB

Colin

[20ppc]

nick you are wrong and have been proven wrong on this before.

it now clearly states that you must use a bullet that has been designed to expand in a predictable and controlled manner.the paper all so states that all bullets will expand if they hit a hard enough surface,but this is not acceptable.

 

i have posted the link on her before and as soon as i have time i will again,but i have not got time at present to look for it.

 

ATB

Colin

 

Sorry Colin,

 

I have to appologise, there was me thinking that the advice of three heads of Firearms Licencing Depts, a senior Lawyer with the CPS and a head of chambers might be worth listenning to, but I should have known better, you and Funky Buch are quite clearly so much better qualified to express an opinion on the law and how it works. Not only that, you are also both experts in the construction of bullets, so much so, you actually know more about this very complex topic than manufactures such as Berger and Hornady, therefore I must bow to your supperior knowledge and admit that I was wrong all along.

 

Nick.

[menial 1]

i have a meat clever that kills them but it don't make them legal.

 

Is that the "Halal" humane dispatcher Col ? Very popular in the sub-continent and Bradford

[col48]

Sorry Colin,

 

I have to appologise, there was me thinking that the advice of three heads of Firearms Licencing Depts, a senior Lawyer with the CPS and a head of chambers might be worth listenning to, but I should have known better, you and Funky Buch are quite clearly so much better qualified to express an opinion on the law and how it works. Not only that, you are also both experts in the construction of bullets, so much so, you actually know more about this very complex topic than manufactures such as Berger and Hornady, therefore I must bow to your supperior knowledge and admit that I was wrong all along.

 

Nick.

 

would you like to back this up?? and get your experts to put this in writing ?(please send me a copy )

 

i think i will follow the firearms licensing directive from the government. as we all know that the firearms licencing department don't know anything as they make more mistakes and ill advise people on a day to day basis.

o and we have your word that they say this,

not something i would risk my licence on.

 

so lets see this advise in writing. from all your so called experts.

 

ATB

Colin

[Alycidon]

Col.

 

What are you hoping to gain?, 20PPC has given info that he believes is correct so have others, deer get shot with bullets that by some legal intepretations may not be quite right, other interpretations say they are OK. FACT. Jumping up and down wont change that and they do kill deer and foxes nicely.

 

Here is a thread on Saubier on the same issue. (I assume we have now finshed the 20 cal bullet bit?)

 

http://www.saubier.com/forum.html

 

An excellent post from deerendingo seems to sum it up nicely;

 

Hi,

I had a long thread discussion on another forum that just about brought the house down over this issue. The outcome was that about the only projectile manufacturer that does not or never has recommended a target bullet for soft skinned small game is Sierra. Hornady did, but don't now. Berger do and there were others.

 

Given I couldn't find anything by Hornady recommending it I asked why would you.

 

The final answer I gave on the topic after taking in all the answers I got was:

 

1. A thousand dead coyotes can't read, and

2. A thousand dead coyotes can't be wrong.

 

Seems I'm getting the same over here. Some don't use 'em 'cause they don't have to. Others use 'em 'cause they work.

 

A

[Guest Tiff]

I really cannot be bothered in this cyber-space pissing contest. I'm sure the CPS have far better things to do than run around the fields of the UK confiscating rounds from FAC holders and testing them at serious expense in labs to see if they are expanding

 

I soley use A-Max or Berger thin jacket VLD's these day. I've never had anyting run more than 10 yards, from impact distances at 15 to 400ish yards. I've regularly asked the head of our regional force if there is a definative list on sec1/sec5 ammo and simply got the reply "to many new bullets come out to keep it up to date. Which is why we're looking to fase it out."

 

For those of you who are slightly anal about what the box says, Berger who have been promoting (from the top) their 'thin match VLD' for game have now changed the wording on the boxes. They are now offering three lines - Varmint, Hunting (thin jacket VLD's - currently match) and Target (thick jacket VLD's). So you can all sleep easy now

 

 

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=KQVKaZoyAZw&....wordpress.com/

[col48]

I really can't be bothered in this cyberspace pissing contest. I'm sure the CPS have far better things to do than run around the fields of the UK confiscating rounds from FAC holders and testing them at serious expense in labs to see if they are expanding

 

 

please if you don't know the law then please do not comment.

the CPS don't make the law nor do they run around and collect evidence.

 

that is what the police are for.

 

ATB

Colin

[col48]

nick

 

just tell me this what is the law on shooting deer (what type of bullet does it say you have to use) please give everdance on this with a link to the relevant place. as the firearms licincing athorerty / nor the CPS make the law.

 

just answer this question, and i have even highlighted the relevant parts.As we do not need to know what you or your mates think is the law, we need to know what is the law. AS YOU SHOULD KNOW IGNERANCE IS NOT AN EXCUESS IN THE EYES OF THE LAW.

 

ATB

Colin

[col48]

Col.

 

What are you hoping to gain?, 20PPC has given info that he believes is correct

YES HE BELIVES IS CORRECT, NOT LAW

so have others, deer get shot with bullets that by some legal intepretations may not be quite right,

THE LAW IS SIMPLE YOU ARE ETHER ABIDING BY IT OR YOU ARE BRACKING IT.

 

other interpretations say they are OK. FACT. Jumping up and down wont change that and they do kill deer and foxes nicely.

 

PLEASE GO BACK AND LOOK AT ALL MY POSTS,I HAVE NEVER SAID THEY DONT KILL DEER OR FOX. BUT SO DOES STRICNEEN BUT THAT IS NOT LEGAL ETHER

Here is a thread on Saubier on the same issue. (I assume we have now finshed the 20 cal bullet bit?)

 

http://www.saubier.com/forum.html

 

An excellent post from deerendingo seems to sum it up nicely;

 

Hi,

I had a long thread discussion on another forum that just about brought the house down over this issue. The outcome was that about the only projectile manufacturer that does not or never has recommended a target bullet for soft skinned small game is Sierra. Hornady did, but don't now. Berger do and there were others.

 

Given I couldn't find anything by Hornady recommending it I asked why would you.

 

The final answer I gave on the topic after taking in all the answers I got was:

 

1. A thousand dead coyotes can't read, and

2. A thousand dead coyotes can't be wrong.

 

 

 

Seems I'm getting the same over here. Some don't use 'em 'cause they don't have to. Others use 'em 'cause they work.

 

A

[Guest Tiff]

Its late at night and I'm bored of revision.....so I'd thought I'd resurrect and hopefully put this thread to bed at the same time.................This is purely about Berger thin jacket VLD bullets and not A-MAX, SMK's etc. Only Berger!

 

Further from my previous post about how Berger market their thin jacket match VLD's as hunting bullets and box them as it as well now. They are also bringing out more promotional bits like this:

 

http://www.bergerbullets.com/Hunting%20Video.html

 

To further this I've been speaking to Eric Stecker (Executive Vice President of Berger) about using their bullets on game. He simply couldn't understand all the fuss over here about it! In his opinion they are the BEST to use on deer at extended ranges or any other range for that matter. They are being sold and promoted as game/deer bullets and should be used so.

 

So is everyone happy now that the thin jacket Berger VLD (previously MATCH) bullets can be used on deer?

 

I cannot see any prosecution against someone using them as deer bullets standing up in court - or even in the pub! They may not classed as expanding and sec 5 over here, but considering what the guys producing/testing, marketing and selling them as are saying, would anyone wish to tell them they are wrong!

 

So does that end the debate on Berger bullets. Can we move onto A-MAX's now please

[Bambi-basher]

Tiff I am with you on this.

 

The Deer act 1981 (amended by 1991 act) states that a bullet used for shooting deer must be:- “a soft point or hollow point bullet.” Nothing else, it does not state it must be section 5, it could not do this; Expanding rifle ammo only came section 5 after Hungerford which happened in 1987; those of us that were old enough to be shooting in the aftermath of this may remember that the BASC/BDS campaigned to get a exception for stalkers/varminters to be able to have expanding ammo and made a big fuss when they won the exception.

 

The “bullets designed or adapted to expand in a predictable manner” is referred to in the firearms act of 1997 and are prohibited unless you have a section 5 exception which as we know you can have if you shoot deer/vermin, but it does not say you have to shoot these with section 5 ammo.

 

The problem here is; if bullets that are being used for match shooting have been designed to expand in a predictable manner then strictly they should be section 5 and target shooters should not be allowed them. Could be a can of worms this.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[Redfox]

It was actually after the unfortunate happening in Stirling that expanding projectiles were banned not Hungerford. The 97 act supercedes any previous law, therfore projectiles designed to reliably expand must be used, any flannel in a foreign manufacturers ads would not necessarily be considered proof.

I fail to understand why anybody would want to uses target bullets on a live animal anyway, there are a great amny accurate expanding bullets designed for that purpose, if target shooting is your thing then use target bullets for that not game!! its all about a bit of commonsense really.

Redfox

[Bambi-basher]

It was actually after the unfortunate happening in Stirling that expanding projectiles were banned not Hungerford.

I stand corrected on that.

 

, therfore projectiles designed to reliably expand must be used, any flannel in a foreign manufacturers ads would not necessarily be considered proof.

I fail to understand why anybody would want to uses target bullets on a live animal anyway, there are a great amny accurate expanding bullets designed for that purpose, if target shooting is your thing then use target bullets for that not game!! its all about a bit of commonsense really.

Redfox

 

Redfox the 1997 act merely says that you can possess other wise prohibited section 5 expanding ammunition if you are shooting vermin or deer, it does not dictate you have to use them, the 1991 Deer acts says they must be soft point or hollow point. The reason for the post is that some bullet manufacture (Hornady and Berger) are stating that their target ammunition is suitable for use on game, so is expanding.

 

Best rgds

 

B-b

[Redfox]

B b I hear what your saying, I just know if it came to any sort of legel issue these makers would not be stood next to you with a folder full of animal expansion test results to back you or their adverts up.

The more responsible like Sierra categorically state not to use them on animals as they are not designed for that purpose and that would sink the others immediately.

Redfox