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outlanda

Remington 700 sa extractor question

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Hi hope you can help. I have a Remington 700 sa 20 Practical and have a problem with the Remington extractor chewing the rim of the .223 brass. I have just replaced the extractor again and still happening. I used the same Lapua brass cases since new and started to get sticking cases that I have improved with redding body die and sorting brass. I have been looking at upgrading extractor to Sako extractor and not sure if worthwhile or who to ask to do the work. So I would be grateful for advice and anyone wiling to share their experience. Thank you.

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Hi outlands, I have a 20 prac built on a rem sa, and decided to do away with the original bolt and have a fluted custom bolt fitted which I'm sure had a sako extractor fitted, it's smoth as silk, wasn't cheap but worth every penny imo.

Steve Kershaw did the build, I'll put the thread up to top of page on varmint rifle's and heavy plinkers for you, there's a couple of pics on there which will show you the bolt.

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3 hours ago, outlanda said:

Hi hope you can help. I have a Remington 700 sa 20 Practical and have a problem with the Remington extractor chewing the rim of the .223 brass. I have just replaced the extractor again and still happening. I used the same Lapua brass cases since new and started to get sticking cases that I have improved with redding body die and sorting brass. I have been looking at upgrading extractor to Sako extractor and not sure if worthwhile or who to ask to do the work. So I would be grateful for advice and anyone wiling to share their experience. Thank you.

Get a competent smith to fit a M16 style extractor much better then the Sako style

Ian.

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M16 extractor superior to the Sako

However I’d ask if there is an underlying problem of putting in the chamber causing brass to be sticky ,,,,,? 

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Yeah that was my initial thought too.

If the extractor is ‘chewing’ the rim of the brass as you say, and you’re getting sticky cases, even after sizing (I’m assuming you’re now F/L sizing, not neck sizing) then I think there’s possibly some other issues afoot. Your brass shouldn’t be chewed up.

If you’re already on your second extractor and the problem persists, there’s something not quite right.

What pressures & velocity are you running? Any signs of over pressure (ejector mark, flattened or pierced primers)? 
Do you experience hard bolt lift AND hard extraction? 
Was the brass new in the barrel or recycled from a different barrel or gun?

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Good evening and thank you for your comments gents. The brass has only ever been used in this barrel. I only run mild loads now(18gr IMR 4198 behind 40gr berger hpbt or Hornady v max and CCi400 primers). Velocity is 3200fps approx., and no signs of over pressure. Hard bolt lift/closing has been a problem and the redding body former die has helped fix this 98%. Closing bolt is easier now with custom JR bolt handle. I have changed the extractor a few times now and wondered if there is a problem with Brownell extractors. All sizing has been with a redding s type full length die. I thought the brass might be worn out so have just tried some new PPU and once fired IMI and still marking the rims.  Thank you Ian I will investigate the M16 extractor option 

Steve

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6 hours ago, outlanda said:

Good evening and thank you for your comments gents. The brass has only ever been used in this barrel. I only run mild loads now(18gr IMR 4198 behind 40gr berger hpbt or Hornady v max and CCi400 primers). Velocity is 3200fps approx., and no signs of over pressure. Hard bolt lift/closing has been a problem and the redding body former die has helped fix this 98%. Closing bolt is easier now with custom JR bolt handle. I have changed the extractor a few times now and wondered if there is a problem with Brownell extractors. All sizing has been with a redding s type full length die. I thought the brass might be worn out so have just tried some new PPU and once fired IMI and still marking the rims.  Thank you Ian I will investigate the M16 extractor option 

Steve

Most thing s I would think are causing this were mentioned, if possible I would try some factory ammo to see what the rims look like should be interesting and wont cost huge money. I don't own a single Remington rifle and haven't seen this in my CZ, Ruger, or Savage rifles.

 

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11 hours ago, outlanda said:

Good evening and thank you for your comments gents. The brass has only ever been used in this barrel. I only run mild loads now(18gr IMR 4198 behind 40gr berger hpbt or Hornady v max and CCi400 primers). Velocity is 3200fps approx., and no signs of over pressure. Hard bolt lift/closing has been a problem and the redding body former die has helped fix this 98%. Closing bolt is easier now with custom JR bolt handle. I have changed the extractor a few times now and wondered if there is a problem with Brownell extractors. All sizing has been with a redding s type full length die. I thought the brass might be worn out so have just tried some new PPU and once fired IMI and still marking the rims.  Thank you Ian I will investigate the M16 extractor option 

Steve

Steve, a mate gave me 200+ federal cases that were once fired in his sako 85 (factory ammo), so before I got my rifle I thought might as well get all the cases sized for 20 prac and ready to load, I was hoping I'd get away with just bumping the shoulders back 2 thou from my mates fired Cases in his chamber, so borrowed his 223 body die and set them all 2thou back, but when I got rifle back and checked to see if bolt would close on the cases it was too tight so had to resize the whole lot again in the Redding s bushing die, just kept dropping die a bit until no resistance on bolt, had no problems with extraction.

How are you using the body die? After sizing with the Redding s bushing die ?

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5 hours ago, KABOOM said:

Most thing s I would think are causing this were mentioned, if possible I would try some factory ammo to see what the rims look like should be interesting and wont cost huge money. I don't own a single Remington rifle and haven't seen this in my CZ, Ruger, or Savage rifles.

 

20 practical is not a factory round, so not possible!!

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13 hours ago, outlanda said:

Good evening and thank you for your comments gents. The brass has only ever been used in this barrel. I only run mild loads now(18gr IMR 4198 behind 40gr berger hpbt or Hornady v max and CCi400 primers). Velocity is 3200fps approx., and no signs of over pressure. Hard bolt lift/closing has been a problem and the redding body former die has helped fix this 98%. Closing bolt is easier now with custom JR bolt handle. I have changed the extractor a few times now and wondered if there is a problem with Brownell extractors. All sizing has been with a redding s type full length die. I thought the brass might be worn out so have just tried some new PPU and once fired IMI and still marking the rims.  Thank you Ian I will investigate the M16 extractor option 

Steve

Hard bolt closing ?  This doesn't sound like an ejector problem at all to me.

This is not right, you should be able to chamber the round with an almost 'drop' into position bolt on closing.  It sounds like your brass is over size for your custom chamber,  ie 'fat' across not long in the neck.  I have had a similar problem with .338.  My Redding Type S die was sizing towards top limit and my chamber is towards bottom limit so the brass was tight going in.  A Hornady die sorted that out.  It may be also made worse by only knocking back the shoulder 2thou as the body isn't going completely into the die.  Try F/L sizing with the shoulder going back to wherever the die takes it.  See if that will chamber easily.

I'm not familiar with 20prac  so I assume you neck down standard .223 ?  Can you compare a brand new .223 to one of your F/L knock-back sized cases?

Maybe have a chat with whoever chambered the barrel if possible?

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26 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Hard bolt closing ?  This doesn't sound like an ejector problem at all to me.

This is not right, you should be able to chamber the round with an almost 'drop' into position bolt on closing.  It sounds like your brass is over size for your custom chamber,  ie 'fat' across not long in the neck.  I have had a similar problem with .338.  My Redding Type S die was sizing towards top limit and my chamber is towards bottom limit so the brass was tight going in.  A Hornady die sorted that out.  It may be also made worse by only knocking back the shoulder 2thou as the body isn't going completely into the die.  Try F/L sizing with the shoulder going back to wherever the die takes it.  See if that will chamber easily.

I'm not familiar with 20prac  so I assume you neck down standard .223 ?  Can you compare a brand new .223 to one of your F/L knock-back sized cases?

Maybe have a chat with whoever chambered the barrel if possible?

Yep 20 practical is just a necked down 223 case,  if it's the same rifle mentioned in my 20 practical post then baldie built it, and that will be the same reamer used to chamber mine as Steve Kershaw borrowed it from Dave, and yes when the shoulders were bumped back 2 thou on my cases with a body die it fattened them up somewhere so they would not chamber, that's why I had to fls them all again with the Redding die to get bolt drop.

 

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10 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

Hard bolt closing ?  This doesn't sound like an ejector problem at all to me.

This is not right, you should be able to chamber the round with an almost 'drop' into position bolt on closing.  It sounds like your brass is over size for your custom chamber,  ie 'fat' across not long in the neck.  I have had a similar problem with .338.  My Redding Type S die was sizing towards top limit and my chamber is towards bottom limit so the brass was tight going in.  A Hornady die sorted that out.  It may be also made worse by only knocking back the shoulder 2thou as the body isn't going completely into the die.  Try F/L sizing with the shoulder going back to wherever the die takes it.  See if that will chamber easily.

I'm not familiar with 20prac  so I assume you neck down standard .223 ?  Can you compare a brand new .223 to one of your F/L knock-back sized cases?

Maybe have a chat with whoever chambered the barrel if possible?

Good evening and thank you again. I have read your comments and I am beginning to think I still have a problem with the cases. I first use the redding type s fl die and then I used the redding forming die which is only working on the case at the bottom close to the rim.

I will look at case size again - I have now run my resized empty cases through the action before installing the new extractor and rejected any that stuck so I know the loads I shall try tomorrow shouldn't get stuck. If no joy I think I need to get some new Lapua cases and start again.

I think Bob57 has explained the 20 Practical is a .223 that is necked down to .204 with Redding type S die and home load only. And yes Baldie Dave put my 20 Practical together in 2010 when with SYSS so unlikely to remember it.

I have been looking for info on M16 extractor and still consider it an option after trying everything else; really trying to avoid sending rifle anywhere at the moment as no gunsmiths here.    

Thank you

Steve 

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28 minutes ago, outlanda said:

Good evening and thank you again. I have read your comments and I am beginning to think I still have a problem with the cases. I first use the redding type s fl die and then I used the redding forming die which is only working on the case at the bottom close to the rim.

I will look at case size again - I have now run my resized empty cases through the action before installing the new extractor and rejected any that stuck so I know the loads I shall try tomorrow shouldn't get stuck. If no joy I think I need to get some new Lapua cases and start again.

I think Bob57 has explained the 20 Practical is a .223 that is necked down to .204 with Redding type S die and home load only. And yes Baldie Dave put my 20 Practical together in 2010 when with SYSS so unlikely to remember it.

I have been looking for info on M16 extractor and still consider it an option after trying everything else; really trying to avoid sending rifle anywhere at the moment as no gunsmiths here.    

Thank you

Steve 

Steve, throw that forming die away and just use the Redding type s fls die, set up to properly fls the cases so that you just get bolt to close without resistance.

You say you've discarded the tight cases when running them through your chamber, set up your die and resize them, then try shooting them again.

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1 hour ago, outlanda said:

Good evening and thank you again. I have read your comments and I am beginning to think I still have a problem with the cases. I first use the redding type s fl die and then I used the redding forming die which is only working on the case at the bottom close to the rim.

I will look at case size again - I have now run my resized empty cases through the action before installing the new extractor and rejected any that stuck so I know the loads I shall try tomorrow shouldn't get stuck. If no joy I think I need to get some new Lapua cases and start again.

I think Bob57 has explained the 20 Practical is a .223 that is necked down to .204 with Redding type S die and home load only. And yes Baldie Dave put my 20 Practical together in 2010 when with SYSS so unlikely to remember it.

I have been looking for info on M16 extractor and still consider it an option after trying everything else; really trying to avoid sending rifle anywhere at the moment as no gunsmiths here.    

Thank you

Steve 

I don't think the extractor is the problem and you may well be wasting money on an M16 extractor.  Redding to a small base die, I don't know if that's available in 20Prc but it may help.

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13 hours ago, Bob57 said:

20 practical is not a factory round, so not possible!!

my mistake I missed the cartridge in question.

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I believe we spoke at length on the phone about this gun ?

If you still want a day out, it can be looked over.

You are oversizing the brass.

I do remember the gun, it was in a bell and carlson tactical, with a Flecktarn pattern. 

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39 minutes ago, baldie said:

I believe we spoke at length on the phone about this gun ?

If you still want a day out, it can be looked over.

You are oversizing the brass.

I do remember the gun, it was in a bell and carlson tactical, with a Flecktarn pattern. 

Good morning Dave. That wasn't me sir. Its been a long time and many projects since so unlikely to remember. I will take a photo later but mine was in an H-S precision stock and you painted it a grey colour. Thank you for offer but too far for a day out im afraid. I no longer go beyond Bristol (No country for old men). Oversizing brass is very likely - logical response to stuck cases I suppose.

Thank you for advice. I am very grateful.

Steve

  

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8 hours ago, Popsbengo said:

I don't think the extractor is the problem and you may well be wasting money on an M16 extractor.  Redding to a small base die, I don't know if that's available in 20Prc but it may help.

Good morning Popsbengo. Thank you the extractor idea is shelved until I have investigated case issues. I am a bit fed up with chewed rims and thought extractor upgrade to be the answer hence op. I thought the redding body die will do same job as small base die and possibly could be same thing although I could well be wrong. Only needs a .223 die however.

Steve

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Best of luck sorting it

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You're just using a 223 body die on formed 20 Practical brass?  That may be your problem right there.  FL resize the brass in your bushing die and see if that fixes the problem (ensure you're bumping the shoulder back). 

A body die only sizes the body and shoulder, which means a 223 body die will not bump back all of the shoulder on a 20 Practical case.  You need to FL size in you bushing die.

This another reason why I dislike wildcat cases that try to bypass proper dies, to save on expense.  It leaves too many variables available for the novice reloader to inadvertently mess up.

Another reason why the 20 Tactical is a better answer IMHO.

At any rate, try to FL resize in your. 223 bushing die with you 20 caliber bushing in place.  If that fixes the issue, then you'll know why; the shoulder near the neck wasn't getting bumped back.

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Been here & done it ! 
 

pm me .. if you like 

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Good evening and thank you for comments gents. Dave this is the rem 20 practical. I have changed stock but might recognize colour if anything. Marine PMI I am using full length type s die.

Today the bolt is heavy on closing (more so with lapua than imi cases), no stuck cases and easy to lift bolt. Some scoring on rims but not taking chunks out so an improvement with new extractor.

There will be a delay now whilst I follow up advice and check cases.

Thank you everyone.

Steve

IMG_20200512_121637.jpg

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Good evening Gents.

Thank you for all the advice and here's a quick update.

First I must thank Bob57,Remmy308, Treetop and Scooby-93 for their help.

Briefly I have polished the chamber and I probably need a bore scope to see the results. I have purchased a Hornady .223 case gauge and checked the cases I run through the action before installing a new extractor. It shown some variation.  I selected cases that dropped straight in to the gauge and run them through the action empty. Same result - the bolt is hard to close, easy to open and score mark on case rim with brass fragments in bolt face after a few. I also tried new cases that dropped straight into gauge and same result. 

The Gauge has been useful for highlighting variations in my case preparation and I would think this has solved any more stuck cases? The new extractor is extracting so I am going to settle for that for now. I will have to live with chewed cases and hard bolt closing I think. I don't know what's causing it and I think the redding shell holder set to set case to headspace might help but bit expensive if i'm wrong!

I tried case gauge on my lake city .223 cases and again some variation. However all these cases fit/extract from my T3X CTR.

Thank you everyone on the post and best wishes

Steve 

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56 minutes ago, outlanda said:

Good evening Gents.

Thank you for all the advice and here's a quick update.

First I must thank Bob57,Remmy308, Treetop and Scooby-93 for their help.

Briefly I have polished the chamber and I probably need a bore scope to see the results. I have purchased a Hornady .223 case gauge and checked the cases I run through the action before installing a new extractor. It shown some variation.  I selected cases that dropped straight in to the gauge and run them through the action empty. Same result - the bolt is hard to close, easy to open and score mark on case rim with brass fragments in bolt face after a few. I also tried new cases that dropped straight into gauge and same result. 

The Gauge has been useful for highlighting variations in my case preparation and I would think this has solved any more stuck cases? The new extractor is extracting so I am going to settle for that for now. I will have to live with chewed cases and hard bolt closing I think. I don't know what's causing it and I think the redding shell holder set to set case to headspace might help but bit expensive if i'm wrong!

I tried case gauge on my lake city .223 cases and again some variation. However all these cases fit/extract from my T3X CTR.

Thank you everyone on the post and best wishes

Steve 

If it was me I'd strip the bolt of firing pin and ejector and chamber a round it should slide in easy and bolt 'drop' closed. This is the most sensitive way of checking headspace I believe.  If it does not, you've got a tight chamber so without a custom die you will have no joy in resizing in a SAAMI/CIP die.  If it does chamber ok it should just slip open and the round come out with a gentle tap of a dowel down the barrel especially if the bullet is jamming in the lands.  If that's all ok then it's some strange ejector issue I don't understand or as MarinePMI advised - the neck is not forming correctly and jamming the case.

If the chamber is tight a decent gunsmith should be able to adjust the chamber to your prepped round (if they have a suitable reamer)

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1 hour ago, outlanda said:

 

 

 

The Gauge has been useful for highlighting variations in my case preparation and I would think this has solved any more stuck cases? The new extractor is extracting so I am going to settle for that for now. I will have to live with chewed cases and hard bolt closing I think. I don't know what's causing it and I think the redding shell holder set to set case to headspace might help but bit expensive if i'm wrong!

 

 

Hi Steve, I don't understand why you're getting variations in your case prep if you have your Redding s bushing die set up properly to achieve bolt close without being tight on a fl sized case, are you still putting the cases through a body die after fl sizing ? Have you got cartridge headspace gauges and callipers to check head space?

You shouldn't be happy with a tight bolt close, you need to get that sorted out.

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