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.22 Rimfire military clone wish list?

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11 hours ago, topscots1 said:

The SA80 has been proven woefully incapable. On now it’s third rewrite it does indeed work.  However all a little late, the procurement system of the UK MOD is flawed.  It has taken years to not only improve a failed rifle.  Create some abortions of PPE all instead of buying off the shelf kit that works.   The Royal Marines move away from using he same kit as the Army is a telling sign.   To many backhanders and ex senior Officers working for defence companies. 

The Sa80 was the gift that kept on giving for HK in terms of upgrade packages. Now must be about end of life cycle.

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1 minute ago, ds1 said:

The Sa80 was the gift that kept on giving for HK in terms of upgrade packages. Now must be about end of life cycle.

On a lighter note how are things in the Czech Republic, I made it back to the Uk just in time to enter lockdown.  Not ideal but still good to be home for a while.

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TopScots, Cz seems to be doing well, not many cv 19 cases and the range has been open since last Tuesday. Shops should open during May. I am not sure that this is not premature though. 

There  seems a glut of SLR ( L1A1’s) here -refurbished 308 semi autos for +/- £600 retail. I don’t think them prices make it an attractive proposition for anyone to re- manufacture as a straight pull or .22 semi though.

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1 hour ago, Kalahari said:

As an outsider, and considering the UK has been involved in sandy conditions conflict, I have often wondered if the South African R4 would have been a better and cheaper solution than the SA80? Interested to hear comments from people who really know about this stuff.

 

David.

Not sure about the SA R4, but my guess is it would have been cheaper to bin all the original SA80’s and by Canadian Diemaco’s of whatever ‘C’ flavour?

But I’m in business not politics! 😂😂

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11 hours ago, ds1 said:

TopScots, Cz seems to be doing well, not many cv 19 cases and the range has been open since last Tuesday. Shops should open during May. I am not sure that this is not premature though. 

There  seems a glut of SLR ( L1A1’s) here -refurbished 308 semi autos for +/- £600 retail. I don’t think them prices make it an attractive proposition for anyone to re- manufacture as a straight pull or .22 semi though.

Where would the SLR have been  built Dave

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11 hours ago, ds1 said:

TopScots, Cz seems to be doing well, not many cv 19 cases and the range has been open since last Tuesday. Shops should open during May. I am not sure that this is not premature though. 

There  seems a glut of SLR ( L1A1’s) here -refurbished 308 semi autos for +/- £600 retail. I don’t think them prices make it an attractive proposition for anyone to re- manufacture as a straight pull or .22 semi though.

I think it may be a little early, eventually the decision is going to come that life must go on.   The CZ got in early enough with there block on movement.  It’s now everyone else spreading the infection.   

The SLR at 600 May still be a good option for a UK shooter if it can be converted at reasonable cost.  The last straight pull variants new here I think we’re around 3k.  I’m not sure if it can be done.  Perhaps a project for a rifle builder.

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14 hours ago, terryh said:

Not sure about the SA R4, but my guess is it would have been cheaper to bin all the original SA80’s and by Canadian Diemaco’s of whatever ‘C’ flavour?

But I’m in business not politics! 😂😂

Got it at the back of my mind somewhere that the unit cost on a diemaco is around £300.  Obvs, UK procurers would put a UK middleman between the mod and the manufacturer in order to triple that cost and make the un-needed middleman rich.  

SA80 was procured so that Royal Ordnance had a contract on its books when it was sold. I'll wager it'll have been someone who secured themself  'business development' role, or similar, in a related company, who ran the rifle procurement decision at 1 or 2 *,  and their underlings will have supported their leadership mood music unquestioningly, in order to get good annual reports from their boss in order to get promoted... that's how it works in UK.

Pop quiz; name the middlemen MOD Abbeywood has used rather than buying direct ("because we need someone who can do the 'complicated' export paperwork")

Daniel Defense

Magpul

Glock

 

Rant over!  Back on topic...  rebarrel the L1A1s with .22 barrels and knock up a ciener equivalent  - piece of piss  to someone with the machinery, I'd have thought. Presumably, if that was done outside the UK, they'd be safely Sect 1?.... David - get on it! 😂😁

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Edgar Bros

as you say, middlemen that bring nothing to the table except a % mark up. 🤔😱😉

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1 hour ago, terryh said:

Edgar Bros

as you say, middlemen that bring nothing to the table except a % mark up. 🤔😱😉

 

Two more to go.  Our tax dollars make lots of middlemen rich!

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Viking Arms as a guess?

 

Back in the day it was York Guns until they broke the rules. 

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20 hours ago, Kalahari said:

As an outsider, and considering the UK has been involved in sandy conditions conflict, I have often wondered if the South African R4 would have been a better and cheaper solution than the SA80? Interested to hear comments from people who really know about this stuff.

 

David.

A 1970s design with an action designed in the 1940s, they might as well have stuck with the original AR-18.

 

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7 hours ago, brown dog said:

 

Pop quiz; name the middlemen MOD Abbeywood has used rather than buying direct ("because we need someone who can do the 'complicated' export paperwork")

Daniel Defense

Magpul

Glock

Edgars for DD and Magpul, but Viking for Glock.

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Having dealt with HMG procurement depts at National and Local Govt level and had arguments about buying something at three times the price that it could be obtained for same day at Screwfix, for example, the answer they give is:

Our suppliers are vetted and they own the risk that the product is ethically made. That's why it costs more and why we only use vetted suppliers.

Basically the middle men are  the fall guys if it turns out that Magpul accessories for the British Army are made by 7 year old Vietnamese kids who sleep on the factory floor.

Also remember that these main dealers rely on Govt orders to keep in business, they aren't kept afloat by the shooting community, so they obtain exclusivity agreements to supply the UK etc. If they didn't then the manufacturers wouldn't be dealing with joe public or small gun shops, so everyone loses out. the Govt contracts are the cherry on the cake for being the appointed distributor.

Finally, if you've ever met HMG procurement people then you'll know it's a case of 'computer says no'

They certainly don't have the ability to manage onboarding, distribution, upkeep and maintaining the supply chain and if they handed that baton over to the RLC, for instance, someone would start saying 'why do we need a procurement dept' and turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

Thats the reason you'll never see a National Police Service because there are 43 Chief Officer teams, 43 Procurement Depts, 43 IT Depts, 43 everything and none of them are going to champion almagamation and reduce to 1 of each, no matter how large!

 

 

 

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I’d buy a 22LR SA80 also.

Having used the A2 & A3 versions in competition and indeed a variety of other nations rifles on the range, my preference would be an A3 over other kit such as the M4 in my limited experience with the M4. I like the balance of the SA80 with the weight being back in my shoulder and with it being a bullpup - being short and easily pointed. 
 

The A3 is a good bit of kit other than burning fingers on the side of the gas block through the hole in the hand guard and the ever enduring sh!te trigger. 

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32 minutes ago, PhilM said:

I’d buy a 22LR SA80 also.

Having used the A2 & A3 versions in competition and indeed a variety of other nations rifles on the range, my preference would be an A3 over other kit such as the M4 in my limited experience with the M4. I like the balance of the SA80 with the weight being back in my shoulder and with it being a bullpup - being short and easily pointed. 
 

The A3 is a good bit of kit other than burning fingers on the side of the gas block through the hole in the hand guard and the ever enduring sh!te trigger. 

A man of exquisite taste I see 👍🙂

Gluv🇬🇧

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Delboy, SLR manufactured by FN ( original).

Best way to improve a Sa80......buy a HK 416 :)

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2 hours ago, Roy W said:

Thats the reason you'll never see a National Police Service because there are 43 Chief Officer teams, 43 Procurement Depts, 43 IT Depts, 43 everything and none of them are going to champion almagamation and reduce to 1 of each, no matter how large!

 

 

 

apart from the amalgamated firearms depts of Staffs & West Midlands 😁    But I get your drift and agree

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1 minute ago, Popsbengo said:

apart from the amalgamated firearms depts of Staffs & West Midlands 😁    But I get your drift and agree

Token gestures to appease Theresa Maybe, many of which are already falling apart, such as Glos/Wilts/A&S Operational Firearms Dept, and other collaborated units that are 'uncollaborating' 

It's all unravelling

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Time SA80 a3 appeared on here and silenced you doubting Thomas's 🙂

Had to post it cause it's got one of my fav tunes on ! 

Gluv🇬🇧

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I would quite like to see a M91/30 in .22LR. Just to add to a WWII themed collection.

 

Edit: Just seen the Poles made the wz. 48, a .22 trainer in the guise of a M38. Where can I get one of those?

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19 hours ago, Gluv said:

Time SA80 a3 appeared on here and silenced you doubting Thomas's 🙂

Had to post it cause it's got one of my fav tunes on ! 

Gluv🇬🇧

Errr.... that is one phekkin odd vid mix 🤔

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22 hours ago, Roy W said:

Having dealt with HMG procurement depts at National and Local Govt level and had arguments about buying something at three times the price that it could be obtained for same day at Screwfix, for example, the answer they give is:

Our suppliers are vetted and they own the risk that the product is ethically made. That's why it costs more and why we only use vetted suppliers.

Basically the middle men are  the fall guys if it turns out that Magpul accessories for the British Army are made by 7 year old Vietnamese kids who sleep on the factory floor.

Also remember that these main dealers rely on Govt orders to keep in business, they aren't kept afloat by the shooting community, so they obtain exclusivity agreements to supply the UK etc. If they didn't then the manufacturers wouldn't be dealing with joe public or small gun shops, so everyone loses out. the Govt contracts are the cherry on the cake for being the appointed distributor.

Finally, if you've ever met HMG procurement people then you'll know it's a case of 'computer says no'

They certainly don't have the ability to manage onboarding, distribution, upkeep and maintaining the supply chain and if they handed that baton over to the RLC, for instance, someone would start saying 'why do we need a procurement dept' and turkeys don't vote for Christmas!

Had the HUGE misfortune once to be contacted  by Royal Ordnance/BAE Systems about a tracked vehicle they were making.
They needed a specialist to manufacture the leather handles that were fitted inside each hatch, as the then present supplier was a firm in Yorkshire run by folk who should have retired when Anthony Eden was calling the shots.

All goes ok via phone & e-mail so I drive to the Notts area factory for a meeting, etc. 

Discuss the drawings they had supplied - no drama
Discuss the material spec. sheets = HUGE drama: the leather type they insisted must be used, and no substitute would be accepted, had been banned about 50 years earlier as some of the chemical needed for the tanning/treatment gave folk cancer if they even glanced at the bottle sideways...or not far off - really nasty stuff...!

They also insisted that the inner core must be a certain type of rope - I'd found more modern ropes that were lighter, stronger, moisture resistant, fire resistant, insect proof, better abrasion resistant & showed evidence of about 150 years R&D compared to the junk that the spec. sheet listed which Lord Nelson would have thought of as old spec. back in his day.

Neither of the points I raised were taken on board

Needless to say I never bothered with the idiots again - as they represent the cutting edge of UK defence manufacturing!
It was & remains extremely scary how blinkered they were as an organisation and how they were completely unable to accept the reality of changes outside of their small world of obsolete spec. sheets & yes men.

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1 hour ago, brown dog said:

Errr.... that is one phekkin odd vid mix 🤔

😂 Silence of the lambs ! Superb track though , I think it all works rather well 

Gluv 🇬🇧

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I can see the draw for the SLR and SA80, especially for those have used them. Personally however I would really quite like the silenced version of the sten gun. Thinking a bit beyond that a few others that stand out to me are the German FG42, also the Russian SVD dragunov and VSS rifle would make quite a nice selection of .22lr semi autos should they become available.

Matt

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1 hour ago, Webley said:

I can see the draw for the SLR and SA80, especially for those have used them. Personally however I would really quite like the silenced version of the sten gun. Thinking a bit beyond that a few others that stand out to me are the German FG42, also the Russian SVD dragunov and VSS rifle would make quite a nice selection of .22lr semi autos should they become available.

Matt

There is a Ruger 1022 done up to look like a VSS on guntrader just now.  A little fun gun, I am tempted by an SLR if one ever comes up for sale, I had my eye on the imbed 308 on here.  Just can’t justify the cash in uncertain times.

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