.22 Rimfire military clone wish list?

[Gerster]

Now?...maybe not so much. It has finally crossed the finish line. Problem is how long it took and how patient squaddies were expected to be in waiting for it to be right.

The ‘finish line’ has now also been moved from when it was conceived of to when it was finally fit for purpose and it is simply is not the best platform for current ops never mind future ones.

[brown dog]

24 minutes ago, Gluv said:

What's wrong with it now apart from those with the devils hand having difficulty ?

I have an AR in .22 and I would take an SA80 over it any day of the week 

It's too heavy, and it can't be fired left-handed around cover.

The CQB centre-chest hold is a dishonourable corporate admission that it's unfit for purpose.

[Gerster]

Each to their own Gluv and ultimately I suppose it’s all relative. Just as you preferred it compared to the LSW I would take an SLR over it in most circumstances. But then my period of service began when the L1A1 was still in service, so I’m aware that I automatically sound like one of the blinded by nostalgia brigade. Yes it was heavy and long in comparison but I never felt the same confidence in the SA80 system or for that matter in the 5.56 round. My period of service ended with Telic 4 and I am therefore unfamiliar with any subsequent developments done to the system. Did it improve over the course of my career? Yes...incrementally. Did my opinion of it improve dramatically overall? No. Would it be my first preference if going on ops again? Definitely not. Is my opinion susceptible to subjective bias rather than objectively? Yes, as is everyones. But as you are aware, a soldier should be confident in his personal weapon above everything else and compared to my experience with its predecessor the SA80 just did not engender that confidence in me in the same manner.

[Dellboy]

5 hours ago, Gerster said:

So if it fair to say that a rimfire SLR would be somewhere near the top of many of our lists then why isn’t someone making them? Bound to be more popular than some of the models so far release here. 

And if s/auto 22WMR are doable in an AR style platform, such as NWCP and now Guncraft do, why not one in SLR guise? 

Ive got a Hammerli Tac R1 and a Walther Uzi while the missus has a Sig 552. Swap all of them for a SLR.

what including the missus ?

[Gerster]

Yes Dellboy, including the missus. But trust me, the Uzi and Sig are the better part of the deal! Both more reliable and cheaper to feed.

Gluv, respect your opinion as everyone’s experience is to some extent different and therefore equally valid. I have some mates who did not have the same opinion of the SA80 as I and took it for what it was - lighter, more compact with some improved features over the SLR, optics being the main one. Trading off proven long term reliability for these features in a platform that was not fit for purpose when initially rolled out and which took too long to make it finally function at a basic level of reliability in the field was a tad frustrating at times for me!

The British Army works well no matter what it’s got and often we don’t have the best that’s available but seldom IMHO have we been made to endure a personal weapon platform, outside of total war conditions, that under performed for so long. In that department we have historically usually been the better equipped over our enemies. Even in WW2 our main battle rifle was better than our enemies and in some respects could even hold its own with the ’newer’ technology out there - Enfield held more rounds than the Garand and could be operated at a high rate of fire. During the Falklands both sides used the same basic rifle. 

The US had their difficulties with the M16 in Vietnam initially which was even more inexcusable in terms of what their troops had to endure but they fixed it and the platform has endured and proven itself admirably. I very much doubt the SA80 platform will endure as long in military service and my hope is that the next weapon system we go with will be the best one available and not something pushed on the armed forces for political reasons and which I maintain was not the best option out there at the time,

Forgive me but I wouldn’t even want one in 22lr today,  even if it was free.....well maybe if it was free......but I can’t say how often I’d end up actually taking it out of the cabinet to use. Sorry if I’ve let my jadedness overcome me!!,

 

[Gerster]

Saddler, agree with all your points!  I should have been more concise. By “lighter and more compact” I meant portable. By optics I meant the ability to mount what became a standard unit.

The concept of the EM2 was indeed ahead of its time and had the project been pursued in the post war period then it might have been a different beast and we would have been at the forefront for awhile in terms of our issue rifle. The appeasement to the US and the subsequent change of direction in terms of calibre, along with the later domestic political agenda of the Thatcher government that contributed to an inferior product being put into service, is the issue I was referring to.

The SLR may not have been the ideal rifle to remain in service but it was not improved on by what replaced initially replaced it. 

[topscots1]

The SA80 has been proven woefully incapable. On now it’s third rewrite it does indeed work.  However all a little late, the procurement system of the UK MOD is flawed.  It has taken years to not only improve a failed rifle.  Create some abortions of PPE all instead of buying off the shelf kit that works.   The Royal Marines move away from using he same kit as the Army is a telling sign.   To many backhanders and ex senior Officers working for defence companies. 

[Popsbengo]

I too thought the SA80 was a heap of crap when I first encountered it.  Thankfully (I'm kidding) my personal weapon was an SMG !  I never got to see or shoot the later revised models of SA80.

I loved my SLR but after training we only got to carry them about and stamp our feet doing rifle drill - except for once a year shooting qualification at the range.  The best bit about the SMG was it was small and light and easy to carry - maybe we could have a .22WMR version of that 😂

A .22WMR LMG would be nice - I had to lug one of those around Catterick and Sennelager when pretending to be infantry (I much preferred my nice warm Auto 40 wagon doing my Sigs day job)

Just a thought, wasn't the weight of the standard infantry payload because of the increased ammo count?  I thought that was one of the deciding factors behind 5.56 over 7.62 - carry more rounds.

[Popsbengo]

12 minutes ago, Gluv said:

So nobody else likes SA80 then ? 😂

 

Gluv🇬🇧

Just you it seems !  "Look, there's my boy Gluv, he's the only one in step!"

[Roy W]

I would have one as a 22

Having previously owned a straightpull I thought they were great for civvy shooting, and let's face it, that's what we do.

With the sub cal kit fitted it was a lovely little 22 to shoot.

Chances of getting one now - Slim to none!

[Popsbengo]

29 minutes ago, Gluv said:

I know , it's normally your left wing communist politics everyone disagrees with !😂

Mind you , you are starting to see the light !  Am I right, am I right ?! 🤔😂

Gluv 🇬🇧

you're very right indeed 😉😁

[Shuggy]

It seems to me that many of those who criticise the SA80 on forums have never even seen an A2 or A3, far less fired one. Truly the dreadful A1 continues to cast a long shadow. The fact is that the A2 endured a decade of hard use on Ops Telic and Herrick with very few problems. It works reliably, shoots accurately and does its job well. 

BD is quite right about its disadvantages of weight and handedness, (although the A3 has managed to trim off 150g!). The A3 has a few ergonomic improvements and does seem to shoot a bit tighter. 

We also hear the usual allegations of MOD corruption, which is total rubbish.

[topscots1]

40 minutes ago, Shuggy said:

It seems to me that many of those who criticise the SA80 on forums have never even seen an A2 or A3, far less fired one. Truly the dreadful A1 continues to cast a long shadow. The fact is that the A2 endured a decade of hard use on Ops Telic and Herrick with very few problems. It works reliably, shoots accurately and does its job well. 

BD is quite right about its disadvantages of weight and handedness, (although the A3 has managed to trim off 150g!). The A3 has a few ergonomic improvements and does seem to shoot a bit tighter. 

We also hear the usual allegations of MOD corruption, which is total rubbish.

Have used both he A2 and A 3 A2 extensively.  The rifle was not fit for purpose.  Hence the upgrades, granted heckler and Koch made the rifle work a little better, still not ideal.  The telling is in the foreign sales. The Singapore police I think we’re the only other organisation to use the rifle.   corruption or favouring the lowest bidder much the same as the current run out of Virtus kit, which is shambolic delivering products unfit for purpose, where an of the shelf system would have worked. 

The fact that any British military unit that can choose to use another weapon has done so speaks for itself. The marines being the latest to opt for the C8.  

 

The fact that vehicle crews in Iraq almost always commandeered an AK to have a short range weapon that worked in the turret is a reputation that will remain with the rifle for its entire life.  Not so much in Afghanistan as weapons were by that stage returned for forensic/ballistic examination or stolen by the ANA ANP.

Having  used both  M4 and SA80 on operations I know which one I would choose.

however everyone is entitled to an opinion, perhaps the A3 will find favour.

[Shuggy]

Topscots, I reckon that your experience entitles you to an opinion more than most!

[brown dog]

1 hour ago, Shuggy said:

It seems to me that many of those who criticise the SA80 on forums have never even seen an A2 or A3, far less fired one. Truly the dreadful A1 continues to cast a long shadow. The fact is that the A2 endured a decade of hard use on Ops Telic and Herrick with very few problems. It works reliably, shoots accurately and does its job well. 

BD is quite right about its disadvantages of weight and handedness, (although the A3 has managed to trim off 150g!). The A3 has a few ergonomic improvements and does seem to shoot a bit tighter. 

We also hear the usual allegations of MOD corruption, which is total rubbish.

The one positive thing I'll say about it is; it's very easy to shoot accurately on a range - it's very forgiving of poor application of the marksmanship principles; when my job changed me to a different rifle, I was horrified to nearly fail my first weapon test, the SA80's 'forgiveness' had eroded my skill on other rifles.

 

As regards 'corruption' - I'd argue that in UK corruption is sophisticated, way beyond brown envelopes; 'odd' decisions have been made, politicians have protected their seats and perhaps gained other benefits,  people military and civilian have protected their annual reports and, perhaps, gained resettlement options...  I forget the values, but I think what we've spent upgrading the rifle is significantly  - orders of magnitude- greater than if we'd simply bought diemaco off the shelf  - all sorts of facile arguments over spares and training costs.

I think the litmus test is SF - granted, some of their kit is different just because they can - but I can't think of anyone picking SA80. 

[Kalahari]

As an outsider, and considering the UK has been involved in sandy conditions conflict, I have often wondered if the South African R4 would have been a better and cheaper solution than the SA80? Interested to hear comments from people who really know about this stuff.

 

David.

[ds1]

11 hours ago, topscots1 said:

The SA80 has been proven woefully incapable. On now it’s third rewrite it does indeed work.  However all a little late, the procurement system of the UK MOD is flawed.  It has taken years to not only improve a failed rifle.  Create some abortions of PPE all instead of buying off the shelf kit that works.   The Royal Marines move away from using he same kit as the Army is a telling sign.   To many backhanders and ex senior Officers working for defence companies. 

The Sa80 was the gift that kept on giving for HK in terms of upgrade packages. Now must be about end of life cycle.

[topscots1]

1 minute ago, ds1 said:

The Sa80 was the gift that kept on giving for HK in terms of upgrade packages. Now must be about end of life cycle.

On a lighter note how are things in the Czech Republic, I made it back to the Uk just in time to enter lockdown.  Not ideal but still good to be home for a while.

[ds1]

TopScots, Cz seems to be doing well, not many cv 19 cases and the range has been open since last Tuesday. Shops should open during May. I am not sure that this is not premature though. 

There  seems a glut of SLR ( L1A1’s) here -refurbished 308 semi autos for +/- £600 retail. I don’t think them prices make it an attractive proposition for anyone to re- manufacture as a straight pull or .22 semi though.

[terryh]

1 hour ago, Kalahari said:

As an outsider, and considering the UK has been involved in sandy conditions conflict, I have often wondered if the South African R4 would have been a better and cheaper solution than the SA80? Interested to hear comments from people who really know about this stuff.

 

David.

Not sure about the SA R4, but my guess is it would have been cheaper to bin all the original SA80’s and by Canadian Diemaco’s of whatever ‘C’ flavour?

But I’m in business not politics! 😂😂

[Dellboy]

11 hours ago, ds1 said:

TopScots, Cz seems to be doing well, not many cv 19 cases and the range has been open since last Tuesday. Shops should open during May. I am not sure that this is not premature though. 

There  seems a glut of SLR ( L1A1’s) here -refurbished 308 semi autos for +/- £600 retail. I don’t think them prices make it an attractive proposition for anyone to re- manufacture as a straight pull or .22 semi though.

Where would the SLR have been  built Dave

[topscots1]

11 hours ago, ds1 said:

TopScots, Cz seems to be doing well, not many cv 19 cases and the range has been open since last Tuesday. Shops should open during May. I am not sure that this is not premature though. 

There  seems a glut of SLR ( L1A1’s) here -refurbished 308 semi autos for +/- £600 retail. I don’t think them prices make it an attractive proposition for anyone to re- manufacture as a straight pull or .22 semi though.

I think it may be a little early, eventually the decision is going to come that life must go on.   The CZ got in early enough with there block on movement.  It’s now everyone else spreading the infection.   

The SLR at 600 May still be a good option for a UK shooter if it can be converted at reasonable cost.  The last straight pull variants new here I think we’re around 3k.  I’m not sure if it can be done.  Perhaps a project for a rifle builder.

[brown dog]

14 hours ago, terryh said:

Not sure about the SA R4, but my guess is it would have been cheaper to bin all the original SA80’s and by Canadian Diemaco’s of whatever ‘C’ flavour?

But I’m in business not politics! 😂😂

Got it at the back of my mind somewhere that the unit cost on a diemaco is around £300.  Obvs, UK procurers would put a UK middleman between the mod and the manufacturer in order to triple that cost and make the un-needed middleman rich.  

SA80 was procured so that Royal Ordnance had a contract on its books when it was sold. I'll wager it'll have been someone who secured themself  'business development' role, or similar, in a related company, who ran the rifle procurement decision at 1 or 2 *,  and their underlings will have supported their leadership mood music unquestioningly, in order to get good annual reports from their boss in order to get promoted... that's how it works in UK.

Pop quiz; name the middlemen MOD Abbeywood has used rather than buying direct ("because we need someone who can do the 'complicated' export paperwork")

Daniel Defense

Magpul

Glock

 

Rant over!  Back on topic...  rebarrel the L1A1s with .22 barrels and knock up a ciener equivalent  - piece of piss  to someone with the machinery, I'd have thought. Presumably, if that was done outside the UK, they'd be safely Sect 1?.... David - get on it! 😂😁

[terryh]

Edgar Bros

as you say, middlemen that bring nothing to the table except a % mark up. 🤔😱😉

[brown dog]

1 hour ago, terryh said:

Edgar Bros

as you say, middlemen that bring nothing to the table except a % mark up. 🤔😱😉

 

Two more to go.  Our tax dollars make lots of middlemen rich!