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Hunting with 6.5 creedmoor


FridTjov

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40 minutes ago, MarinePMI said:

Interesting.  I've had very erratic results with the 143ELD-X.  At 270yds I had one grenade against the sternum (went in, between left side ribs, nicking one, bouncing it down into the back of the sternum), and found the slug under the hide on the opposite shoulder.  Strangely, it somehow missed both lungs (still trying to figure that one out; literally riccochet'ed around the lungs!).  The second round went through the left side ribs (missed bone), through the heart (blew out one ventricle), then punched a nice, neat, 6.5mm hole through one rib on the left side, and left another 6.5mm hole through left humorous(sp?) bone.  She just rolled over on the second shot, but the first shot she wobbled, staggered, laid down for about 5 mins, and then got back up (that's when the second shot was taken).

 

Ironically, another friend (known to Andrew as well) went out and took several deer and elk with same type ammo and exact same rifle (I borrowed his rifle so I didn't have to fly with mine).  I think the ELD-X (particularly the 6.5mm variant) had some issues.  I've heard this from several hunters around the US, and had also heard that Hornady made some changes to the ELD-X in 6.5mm (it seemed to be the only caliber that exhibited this weird behavior), since all of this.  <Shrug>  Like I said, interesting.

My rifles shoot them very well I even use the 143 eldx out to 1200 yards with no problems  On range days 

maybe you Had a bad batch , there’s was a rumour going around that there was a problem with the poly tips . But they have by all accounts rectified that . 
but personally I have never had a problem. To be honest I can’t rate them high enough And find them very easy to work with . 

the same goes for the 140 ELD m and the 147 ELD m 
 

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10 minutes ago, One on top of two said:

My rifles shoot them very well I even use the 143 eldx out to 1200 yards with no problems  On range days 

maybe you Had a bad batch , there’s was a rumour going around that there was a problem with the poly tips . But they have by all accounts rectified that . 
but personally I have never had a problem. To be honest I can’t rate them high enough And find them very easy to work with . 

the same goes for the 140 ELD m and the 147 ELD m 
 

It's quite possible I just ended up with a bad batch (I had heard similar, that a bad batch had gotten out).  I'll just blame @Andrew, since he picked up the ammo for me. 😂😂

 

This year I'll be loading up some 130gr Gamechanger Sierras, and see how they perform.

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29 minutes ago, MarinePMI said:

In Montana, a "gentle breeze" can be 35-40mph gusts.  Even at 300yds, that can push a bullet a fair bit (about 18+ inches).  Even at a modest 15mph (kind of normal wind in Montana in the fall/early winter where I hunt), it's an almost 8 inches of drift (143 ELD-X @ 2700fps).  With a .308 and 178 ELD-X, it's 10+ inches (@2500 fps), and at 35mph it goes to 24+ inches (vice the 18 of the CM).

 

Just depends on the terrain, weather and distances...the US can be fairly broad in it's variables, depending on where one lives.  Out west, the ranges get longer, and winds get stronger.

Indeed so, and in long narrow valleys found in Wy around Encampment the darn wind swirls adding to the windage debacle . so I try to get my self set for a zero wind value shot, often I cant so I compromise and at least lessen drift by wind value related to where I shoot from.

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My tuppence:

A lot of the pro 6.5 commentary stresses shot placement.

If we're discussing large-body deer, I personally believe that bigger bullets are more forgiving when shot placement is sub- optimal. It's rather akin to the argument about whether 243 is a beginner's deer calibre. Some say it is, but many have come to see 243 as an expert's calibre - beginners needing something with more knock down in the event of sub optimal placement.

Will a 6.5 kill large deer? Undoubtedly, but with the right 'shot placement' 22lr will kill moose, but that doesn't make 22 a great choice.

I think 'knock down is part of this conversation, and that part of the conversation includes momentum (rather than KE) and energy transfer rates. As we all know, it starts to wander into subjectivity as much as science, but the '308 for boar' comments probably reflect the truism of the knock down difference between 308 and 6.5.

I forget who said it, someone like O'Connor, but when questioned on smaller calibres he said 'not if it's for something that wants to chew on my blue jeans'.

So... I don't think it's correct to say there's no difference on the animal. There definitely is.

 

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6 hours ago, MarinePMI said:

It's quite possible I just ended up with a bad batch (I had heard similar, that a bad batch had gotten out).  I'll just blame @Andrew, since he picked up the ammo for me. 😂😂

 

This year I'll be loading up some 130gr Gamechanger Sierras, and see how they perform.

Can I get you a little cheese with that......?

Frankly, I would use 140 Sierra Game Kings. I have killed a few deer with them and I cannot find fault. People waaay over think it~Andrew

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On 3/19/2020 at 10:56 AM, FridTjov said:

Hi. Im searching up for hunting rifle and cant choose caliber.. At the first moment I was sure that .308 would be great but now Im considering 6.5 creedmoor, I like this round but my question is what ammo in this caliber would you use for boar/deer hunting and does it have enough stopping power? Thank you and sorry for my english

Hey guys, thank you for replies. My friend told me that he is considering 7x64 too, what do you think about this if you compare it to .308 . If you can please tell me your opinion and some tip like which company, bullet weight and other details, thanks

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I've used both cals on small game, including muntjac.  Bullet choice matters in either case.  Too much is made about calibres and not enough on accuracy of shot placement and bullet construction.  Beginners often get the advice to stick with the "more reliable" .308 but the truth is that in energy terms there's little between them but sectional density and velocity can be markedly different and a bullet that works in one well may not work in the other so well.  I agree with Andrew.  Not much will get up from a well placed 140gr SGK in 6.5 irrespective of deer size, and whilst the wound channel won't be quite as large as the equivalent 150grn SGK in .308,  I've yet to get a runner with one.  I have had runners with the .308 and I've seen deer heart shot run 100yds before dropping which on examination has a large chunk of their ticker missing!

Switching to HILAR bullet placement has made kills much more reliable IME and loading and practising for accuracy gives confidence in CNS area being hit.  If I I can't hit it or there's any doubt, I wont take the shot, where someone faced with a deer side on even if moving might be tempted to take an engine room shot.  Be it .243/6.5 or .308, a CNS hit will result in a bang-flop every shot.  After discovering this I'm bemused as to why organisations like the BDS still propose the engine room as the most reliable shot when experience shows that's just not the case.  The other thing which steered me towards the HILAR placement was that especially when using the .308 on Muntjac, well placed boiler room shots were still bursting the stomach ands gut through hydraulic action.  Far less so when hit anywhere in the CNS area.

My take on ther cal thing.  Buy both, shoot both, enjoy both.  308 would be my choice for boar.  There's a reason it's still one of the worlds most popular calibers.  It works well on medium and some large game.  The 6.5 has the legs at distance so if shooting over terrain like NZ where shooting across valleys often results in 600plus yd distances, I'd pick the 6,5 or 7mm-08 over the .308 as BC matters more where distances and windage make things more difficult.

It's not really something to generalise on, but just apply a little thought and there's good arguments for both.   

For the UK, I'd still rather have the 6.5 as it's so much sweeter shooting, and using SGKs it's a very reliable stopper and superbly accurate.  The .308 is fine and no more expensive to load for but my personal choice would be the 6.5 as I just get on better with it.  If I wanted a day on boar though, I'd pick up the .308.  In that case, the option of a much heavier projectile and a wider wound channel shot over relatively short distances are the ideal tool for boar.

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  • 3 months later...

I don't shoot deer, I shoot boar. European boar are big, strong, nasty angry bastards, deserving of their genre as "dangerous game". I use .30-06 for some of the more open ground and .45-70 for close wooded areas. Simply put, you can shoot deer with your boar rifle, but you won't necessarily be able to shoot boar with your deer rifle...

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5 hours ago, simgre said:

I don't shoot deer, I shoot boar. European boar are big, strong, nasty angry bastards, deserving of their genre as "dangerous game". I use .30-06 for some of the more open ground and .45-70 for close wooded areas. Simply put, you can shoot deer with your boar rifle, but you won't necessarily be able to shoot boar with your deer rifle...

I have to chuckle.  I've shot boar with .223 (light AP rounds), an put them down easily...

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6 hours ago, MarinePMI said:

I have to chuckle.  I've shot boar with .223 (light AP rounds), an put them down easily...

Yeah, but that goes back to you can kill a moose with 22lr, but that doesn't make it the best choice ( unless you're a Newfie!). 

I think the self-preservation aspect of standing on the ground, face-to-face encounters with driven boar probably puts a different assessment of stopping power in mind too!

(I do wonder on the helo boar vids, how many of the brassed-up boar get up a wander-off wounded after the camera has rapidly moved on. )

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7 hours ago, MarinePMI said:

I have to chuckle.  I've shot boar with .223 (light AP rounds), an put them down easily...

Yep, I imagine you have. It’s well documented that the AR platform is the preferred “boar” rifle in North America. But, the feral pig of the US is not a Eurasian Wild Boar. 
 

The feral pig will a average 150 to 200 lbs, rarely getting up to 400. In western and Central Europe, they average 200 to 290lbs. 400 to 475 not uncommon. Eastern Europe average  300 to 400lbs, sometimes getting up to 550 and Asia can see their boar hit Brown Bear sizes!

a .223 semi is suitable for dealing with large numbers of small pigs in a sounder that have gone culled quickly before making cover. .223 is not suitable in the UK. The minimum for U.K. is .270 cal with a 150gn bullet and some countries of mainland Europe require a .30 cal 180gn bullet minimum. 

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I would be feeling decidedly undergunned with anything less than a 308 on a proper boar. Have hunted pigs in Texas with an AR in 6.5 Grendel and it dropped em easily enough...however I saw a bloke in New Zealand just about stopped a decent size boar at his feet with a 45/70....nerves of steel .....oh marvellous it stopped I heard him utter..

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With options in the cabinet for 243, 6.5, and 308, I've read this thread with interest.

Completely agree with the points re Hilar zone shooting - this or neck should be the standards for the BDS etc. Prioritising meat retention over the certainty of killing and finding a deer is nuts, particularly with current game dealer prices.

This approach makes bullet selection less of a factor, but my takes.

243 - hunting, Hornady 95g Super Performance SST, devastating, highly accurate, shot sub-MOA at 900y at Bisley. Use for static shooting of fallow / roe / muntjac from high seats.
243 - range, 105g scenar

308 - hunting, have used Federal Powershok 150g very consistently for all deer, cheap and effective, chrono has shown single figure SD values at points. Recently started using a handload of ELD-X 178g loaded to 2600fps - the BC figures are hard to argue with but have not (yet) taken any body shots. 

308 - range, don't generally shoot that seriously but have good results with the (very cheap) GGG 168g which is a Sierra HPBT at 2650

6.5 - range, Hornady ELD-M 147g. Have shot this consistently to 1300m.

All of the above based on very limited time to load, so reliance mainly on factory ammo. What is interesting - for every calibre Nathan Foster recommends using the heaviest A-Max / ELD-M head available. This makes a lot of sense ballistically, and the light jackets should give flexibility at ranges where velocity is >=1800fps. This is where the 6.5 gets really interesting, as it has the BC values to be a great range rifle, and is supersonic c.300m further than 308 with conservative loads, with a similar difference in the magic 1800fps barrier. Most of this is about having fun with numbers, but the flexibility of the 6.5CM, and accuracy with easily available factory ammo makes it a real swiss army knife.

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7 hours ago, simgre said:

Yep, I imagine you have. It’s well documented that the AR platform is the preferred “boar” rifle in North America. But, the feral pig of the US is not a Eurasian Wild Boar. 
 

The feral pig will a average 150 to 200 lbs, rarely getting up to 400. In western and Central Europe, they average 200 to 290lbs. 400 to 475 not uncommon. Eastern Europe average  300 to 400lbs, sometimes getting up to 550 and Asia can see their boar hit Brown Bear sizes!

a .223 semi is suitable for dealing with large numbers of small pigs in a sounder that have gone culled quickly before making cover. .223 is not suitable in the UK. The minimum for U.K. is .270 cal with a 150gn bullet and some countries of mainland Europe require a .30 cal 180gn bullet minimum. 

I hear what you are saying, and agree there are better options  for pig/boar.  But saying a 400lb boar has to be shot with a certain sized caliber because it is law is...flawwed.  I lived in the UK, and can say fairly confidently that a most of the game there is (legally mandated to be) over gunned.  Shot placement and a good bullet is, and has always, been key.  Not some subjectively approved ft/lbs of energy chart...but I digress and am not trying to start an argument; merely a perspective.

And yes, the feral pigs/boars are increasing in size here as they spread further north...

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8 hours ago, brown dog said:

Yeah, but that goes back to you can kill a moose with 22lr, but that doesn't make it the best choice ( unless you're a Newfie!). 

I think the self-preservation aspect of standing on the ground, face-to-face encounters with driven boar probably puts a different assessment of stopping power in mind too!

(I do wonder on the helo boar vids, how many of the brassed-up boar get up a wander-off wounded after the camera has rapidly moved on. )

Yes, I agree to a large extent.

Here in the States, they are mostly baited (hog pipes), or shot as they move into pastures at night.

As to the helo boar vids, I'd imagine a few get up and walk away, but not many.  We have too many predators for them to last long, regardless.

Honestly, I think the difference is in perspective.  In UK/Europe they are a source of game/meat.  And as such, are afforded the status that comes with all game; respect and fair chase.  In many parts of the US however, they are a pest/vermin (and a destructive one at that), and so are treated the same as rodents, coyotes and foxes.  Something to be thinned out, as efficiently and effectively as possible.

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  • 2 weeks later...

1.5 billion in agricultural damage done every year by what is, basically, an invasive species. I think of them as 180 pound prairiedogs. Wounded and left to die is still dead and that's good. Canada has not controlled their feral hog population and it is threatening Montana.  They will be slaughtered whole sale and heartlessly if they turn up on this side of the border.~Andrew 

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I'm reading a lot about using the Hornady ELD-X/M choices and surprisingly few comments for thr less expensive 140SST.  I wonder why...is iot perception or just that people have naturally progressed to the more expensive slightly higher BC option?  Personally, the accuracy I've achieved using the SST matches that of the 139 Scenar match bullets I've also used and providing you're not shooting within 100yds, they are not too explosive in expansion.

I hear what some are saying about the .308 and larger cals V's 6.5 but looking on historical use, the Swede has been in use for a century on Elk, and in softer Swede Military 46Kpsi loadings than current 6.5 loads.  I don't really understand the arguments about bullet placing being less critical with larger cals because I don't really believe that's true based on personal experience, unless shooting close in at similar velocities.  Providing wound channels and penetration are adequate, both should work well.  Accuracy for a HILAR is really not much more onerous than for boiler room, so I get back to that point being quite relevant.  Bullet calibre becomes less critical if confidence is there to achieve HILAR shots.  Saying that, shooting European Boar is not like UK deer species...for a start they don't stand nice and still for accurate bullet placement, so when you have a 300+lb very agitated animal bearing down on you at speed, the bigger the cal the better imho!

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Shot placement is paramount. having seen small rodent's live after a hit with 8x58fmj then another hit with 30calfmj lesson drilled into my head. Same size rodent with 223 VMAX had to be hit again with another VMAX launched from a 22-250 to stop the escape. You must hit the "shut off switch" or things run off.

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2 hours ago, KABOOM said:

Shot placement is paramount. having seen small rodent's live after a hit with 8x58fmj then another hit with 30calfmj lesson drilled into my head. Same size rodent with 223 VMAX had to be hit again with another VMAX launched from a 22-250 to stop the escape. You must hit the "shut off switch" or things run off.

With respect, your examples are flawed. Anything hit with an FMJ, is likely going to need another FMJ to put it down.   They just don't expand for crap.  Sometimes they're dead and just don't know it yet...

As for the VMax, the opposite happens with the same result; another round is needed.  Varmint bullets like the VMax are designed for violent expansion, causing "bullet splashing" where the round comes apart before it can penetrate enough to do the deed.  We see it all the time on coyotes and wolves here in the States

A properly expanding bullet AND a penetrating shot to the vitals or CNS, is what reliably puts an animal down.  One or the other is (largely) a false argument.

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1 minute ago, MarinePMI said:

With respect, your examples are flawed. Anything hit with an FMJ, is likely going to need another FMJ to put it down.   They just don't expand for crap.  Sometimes they're dead and just don't know it yet...

As for the VMax, the opposite happens with the same result; another round is needed.  Varmint bullets like the VMax are designed for violent expansion, causing "bullet splashing" where the round comes apart before it can penetrate enough to do the deed.  We see it all the time on coyotes and wolves here in the States

A properly expanding bullet AND a penetrating shot to the vitals or CNS, is what reliably puts an animal down.  One or the other is (largely) a false argument.

My example was based on the fact that the prarie dog lived because its heart/lungs or head were not hit, fmj was the only ammo we had at the time. The sole intent was to show things can and do survive being poorly hit. Having shot thousands of V-MAX I am well aware of it's capability and limitations.  The need for shot placement with any bullet is  what I intended to show. 

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The big issue is we can not guarantee shot placement. If we could, we could use 223 fmj. In reality we are better off using something a bit to big in the long run. If we make suggestions we should think of the average shooter who might have difficulties hitting 4" at 100yds.  Just attend a dsc1 shoot and look at the results. 

What i don't like is the perception that we only need to kill animals quickly that could harms us .... other animals that just run away don't matter. I think we have the duty make sure an animal dies quick.

edi

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