Spare parts question.

[Christian..]

6 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

Not sure the relevance of non-civvi shooting but never mind.  Just trying to offer some guidance as I'm reasonably well informed as Secretary of a target shooting club.  If you can get to do what you want then best of luck to you and any club that lets you shoot as a guest.

   43 minutes ago,  Popsbengo said: 

The relevance was the part where you said this bit:

By the way, you won't get near a MoD range without being a probationer under supervision or holding a SCC (NRA safe shooters card)

[Popsbengo]

26 minutes ago, Christian.. said:

   43 minutes ago,  Popsbengo said: 

The relevance was the part where you said this bit:

By the way, you won't get near a MoD range without being a probationer under supervision or holding a SCC (NRA safe shooters card)

OK, I give in.  The conversation was about civvi target shooting so the context was that.  You asked for some info, you don't like the advice, that's cool, your entitled to do what you want of course.  Best wishes you're even more argumentative than me 😂

 

[Christian..]

Just now, Popsbengo said:

OK, I give in.  The conversation was about civvi target shooting so the context was that.  You asked for some info, you don't like the advice, that's cool, your entitled to do what you want of course.  Best wishes your even more argumentative than me 😂

 

Apologies if I come across augmentative. 

I'm just trying to get clear facts. I appreciate you have insight into range shooting. I have non as a civvi. I'm competent and safe on a range and would like to know the possibility to use one to check zero my rifles after paying the fee for use. 

It's not going to be in the interest of a shooting clubs to do it this way but it appears some do allow it and it can be done. 

Also from a bit of research it seems you can add target shooting to a fac without being in a club. I could be wrong but it would be nice to know. 

 

 

[Popsbengo]

14 minutes ago, Christian.. said:

Also from a bit of research it seems you can add target shooting to a fac without being in a club. I could be wrong but it would be nice to know. 

I've never heard of that being done - that doesn't mean it can't be.  Home Office rules are pretty clear and unambiguous about clubs and members. If you can get your FEO to agree to put a target shooting condition without you being a member of a named club, good luck to you.  Out of interest, what county are you in?

[Mattnall]

The club you mention that has a 'visitor's fee' most likely aren't offering it for hunters to go zeroing and would require you to have membership of a target shooting club somewhere in the country.

If it is the cost you are worried about then there are many clubs out there with minimal facilities offering membership at favourable rates. My most expensive club is £100pa the cheapest two are both £20pa.

[Christian..]

4 hours ago, Mattnall said:

The club you mention that has a 'visitor's fee' most likely aren't offering it for hunters to go zeroing and would require you to have membership of a target shooting club somewhere in the country.

If it is the cost you are worried about then there are many clubs out there with minimal facilities offering membership at favourable rates. My most expensive club is £100pa the cheapest two are both £20pa.

From what I can ascertain it depends on the club rules. From reading on the internet and other shooters experiences. It's established its possible to shoot on a range as a guest and not  be a member. This is fact even when your FAC is for shooting over land/Vermin.You can not do this the other way round though. This would make sense as I'm not a club member but my FAC is open so I can travel anywhere. It also states I can shoot on a range for zeroing and practice. I'd like to think the legislation on the FAC has been thought out and wouldn't have been put on there if it wasn't possible. The practice part to me would probably cover testing self reloads and seeing how they work out for accuracy at different distances. The "practice" part before the "zeroing" wold also indicate that's it's not restricted to zeroing alone.  

If you click the link below you will see this range will allow you to do exactly that but limits visits to three times a year, others don't have a limit https://www.barryshootingcentre.co.uk/membership-faqs/

[Popsbengo]

2 hours ago, Christian.. said:

From what I can ascertain it depends on the club rules. From reading on the internet and other shooters experiences. It's established its possible to shoot on a range as a guest and not  be a member. This is fact even when your FAC is for shooting over land/Vermin.You can not do this the other way round though. This would make sense as I'm not a club member but my FAC is open so I can travel anywhere. It also states I can shoot on a range for zeroing and practice. I'd like to think the legislation on the FAC has been thought out and wouldn't have been put on there if it wasn't possible. The practice part to me would probably cover testing self reloads and seeing how they work out for accuracy at different distances. The "practice" part before the "zeroing" wold also indicate that's it's not restricted to zeroing alone.  

If you click the link below you will see this range will allow you to do exactly that but limits visits to three times a year, others don't have a limit https://www.barryshootingcentre.co.uk/membership-faqs/

What you are suggesting is a 'legal work around' used by shooting over land FAC holders. It's done for sure and seems to be accepted by FEOs.  Possibly we were at cross purposes here.  Target shooting is a 'good reason' condition but requires membership of a target shooting club (not necessarily HO approved but most are).  I understood (in earlier posts) that was what you were trying to achieve.  Possibly misunderstood you.

I know there are ranges that are set up to allow 'zeroing' that practically allow 'practice'.  Barry seems to be a commercial range that does a bit of both (we have a tunnel range locally that's similar).  If you are looking to do only an occasional 'practice' then Barry would be an answer it seems.  If you were looking to attend target shooting range days with a HO approved club I would be surprised if they would allow you with your current FAC conditions even as a guest.

There's no legal bar on any land owner setting up a "range" as long as it's fit for purpose and insured adequately.  How you then convince your local FEO to permit its use and endorse your FAC accordingly is unclear to me - it doesn't seem to be standardised across the forces.   As I mentioned in earlier posts, Garlands and Catton Park have some sort of arrangement that permits 'shooting over land' and 'target shooters' conditions to turn up and pay to shoot on the day.

I think we can all agree UK firearms law is complex, mysterious and inconsistently applied 😉

[AJW7088]

Absolutely agree that UK firearms law is complex, mysterious and can be inconsistently applied. I would offer that the inconsistency of application is usually a product of the complexity.

Here is one of the aspects that causes confusion in the very circumstances that are being asked about;

s44 (1) Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 requires that if a firearm certificate holder’s only reason for possession is target shooting, then the certificate holder must be a member of a HOAC specified on the certificate. What the section doesn’t help with is when the certificate holder wishes to use the same firearm for both target shooting and quarry shooting. In such a case the inference of the wording is that the certificate holder does not have to be a member of a HOAC, then specified on the certificate.
Because this might then lead to lots of target shooters seeking quarry shooting permissions simply to avoid needing to have a HOAC specified on their certificate (together with membership of it), some police staff might work on the basis that for the target shooting element HOAC membership is needed, and others might not. This may be why the author has seen certificates conditioned for quarry shooting and target shooting without the HOAC aspect.

I think the ranges that are being discussed here may include private ranges operated on a commercial basis, as opposed to ranges operated by a HOAC. On the private ranges it may well be the case that one or more HOACs hire them and use them (which then gives the police powers of entry and inspection) but individual certificate holders who have quarry shooting conditions can do so too, for zeroing. 
The three visit “limit” at one of these ranges is likely to be the range operator’s “protection” against any claim they were allowing target shooting by certificate holders only allowed to zero. As has been commented, the difference between zeroing and target shooting is not defined in UK firearms law, and so would eventually rest with a court to decide. 
Best approach for the OP is again to ask the FEO about adding target shooting and see what is suggested about HOAC membership, I think.

Hope that helps,

Adrian 
 

[Christian..]

All great points and very interesting, 

I wouldn't say a vermin FAC shooter shooting on a range is a loop hole id say its specifically put on the certificate so it can be done. What's interesting is my FAC states "zeroing-practice on ranges" This is a really broad statement and it could be interpreted as more than zeroing. How can you practice at zeroing surely its something that's just done. You could practice marksmanship and  improve accuracy and shot consistency in line with shooting quarry. You could even shoot at deer shaped targets 🤣. 

One could ask for the "Target-shooting" to be added with something along the lines of;

Please may I have target-shooting condition amended to my FAC. I intend to shoot targets for zeroing accurately and to practice. Also to test reloads and enter the odd competition as a guest on ranges. I note that under the conditions on my FAC in section 5 it already states zeroing practice on ranges, but would just like to add the amendment to the cert if possible to cover the other activities.

They can only say no.

[Roy W]

Why not phone your licensing Dept on Monday and just ask them

[Christian..]

It's probably best to do it in writing Roy. You'd have to give a reason on record then if it's a no can do.   

[Roy W]

You'll get a more specific answer on the phone than you will on here.

[1066]

2 hours ago, Christian.. said:

 What's interesting is my FAC states "zeroing-practice on ranges" 

I seem to remember a court case where "Rifle shooting practice" was deemed to be "The practice of rifle shooting"  As in Doctors practicing medicine. 

[Christian..]

30 minutes ago, 1066 said:

I seem to remember a court case where "Rifle shooting practice" was deemed to be "The practice of rifle shooting"  As in Doctors practicing medicine. 

I found this too to confuse things some more 😂

Practise is the "repeated performance or systematic exercise for the purpose of acquiring skill or proficiency". The word 'practice' on the other hand, refers to "exercise or pursue as a profession, art or occupation". The doctor is a "practitioner" (noun) who is trained in medical practice.