Spare parts question.

[Christian..]

This might have already been covered so apologise if it has. 

I'm currently in the market for a AR-15 rifle. I have a spare 223 slot on my FAC that needs filling. As these rifles are very interchangable with parts I'm interested to know how far you can go with parts before its classes as an extra rifle. 

For example could you buy a spare upper and lower as long as you stick to the same barrel and bolt. Or even a spare upper and barrel and stick to the same bolt so technically you would never have two complete rifles. 

Any help or advice on this would be greatly appreciated. 

Kr,

Chris. 

[AJW7088]

Hello,

I will try and help. Section 57 (1) (a) Firearms Act 1968 (as amended) defines a “firearm” as being the whole item (for example a fully assembled and functioning straight pull AR15 based rifle) and then goes on to add, at s57(1)(c), that the term also means any “relevant component part”. 
The term “relevant component part” is further defined, at s57(1D) as meaning;

(a) a barrel, chamber or cylinder,

(b)a frame, body or receiver,

(c)a breech block, bolt or other mechanism for containing the pressure of discharge at the rear of a chamber,

This means that each of the items listed above is also a firearm (in law) and if you had it on its own then you would need to have authority to possess it on your firearm certificate.

The authority to possess a .223” rifle currently on your certificate means you can possess one complete set of relevant components such as make up the rifle, but if you have a spare of any one of them then that spare relevant component part has to be on your certificate specifically too.

Hopefully that is what you were asking about. Apols if I have misunderstood!

Adrian

 

[Christian..]

Hey Adrian,

Thats a perfect answer and exactly what I was asking, be it a little disappointing. On a good note it looks as though I could have multiple hand guards or stock's and grips etc.. 

I suppose the next question is how would I go about getting an extra lower or upper on the ticket. My reason is there is so many different configurations left hand right hand flat top and so on that it would be nice to have a few options to swap back and forth and to try different set ups.

At the moment I've had to justify each rifle and understand how this works. Would because i want different configurations be a good enough reason. 

Thanks again.

Kr,

Chris.

 

[AJW7088]

Hello Chris,

I am glad that helped, if indeed a little disappointing! You are quite correct in that you can have as many different grips, forends and stocks etc as you like, and sights as well for that matter.

I think you would be best speaking to your police FEO about additional relevant components. Unfortunately I think the police view on that will be inconsistent and so it may depend upon the opinion your FEO comes to as to whether what you want to do amounts to “good reason”. 
 

It is certainly the case that some certificate holders have additional barrels (in different chamberings) to exchange on their rifle, depending upon shooting task, but I am not sure about other relevant components. No harm in asking and others reading this might be able to help too.

Good luck!

Adrian

 

[Christian..]

Thanks again for taking the time to reply Adrian, 

Just when I thought I new how it all worked then I discovered AR-15's and all the shiny parts to bolt on 😂

Kr,

Chris.

 

[Roy W]

It's quite normal to have '.223/5.56 Barrelled Receiver'  on an FAC as a spare top half. Lots of people have an AR and then a spare .22 upper or a .300 Blackout upper and use the same lower.

You just need to get a variation

 

 

 

[Christian..]

Thanks for the information Roy that's great.

I'll stick the paperwork in. I only have a year left to renew my FAC too so I might as well do it all at the same time if they will let me. 

Is having a spare good reason ? I don't think I will get away with having a 22 upper as I already have a 22LR rifle. I like the idea of the 300 Blackout. If I can get a variation for a spare upper I could go for a long heavy barrel and a short light barrel that would be handy.

 

Thanks again for your help guys.

[Roy W]

Good reason can be target shooting, just understand why you want/need a different calibre/barrel length etc etc.

Why do you want them? That's a good starting point.

A .22lr upper is for steel plates, indoor ranges, winter practice etc etc

You only need a good reason, just make sure you know what it is and you know what you are talking about. It's no good saying you want a 300 blackout for long range shooting, for example.

 

 

 

[Christian..]

Thanks Roy,

Currently my firearms are for Vermin and shooting over cleared land. I'm looking to get into more range and club shooting and maybe competition in future. 

I've had my previous FAC for aver 15 years but have never been interested in competition up until recently. Hence just starting to explore possibilities. I'm popping up to my local shooting club tomorrow too. I may make things easer if I join a shooting club then i a can put down indoor ranges and target shooting as well. 

 

[Mattnall]

Membership of a club will help with the good reasons and is necessary for target shooting condition.

When it comes to wanting extra parts or uppers state your reasons for wanting them, not someone else's. Only you know why you want it and if it's your reason(s) you'll not look stupid when asked a specific question about your reason and you have a real answer to hand.

You can have several rifles in the same calibre if you have the justifications, so don't limit yourself to only one .22LR if you feel you have the need for another. I have more than a few .22LR and .223/5.56 rifles, all have their place and uses in the grand scheme of things.

[Christian..]

Thanks Mattnall,

I'm having a run up my local club today to have a chat and collect some ammo whilst there.

I've been reading through the home office good reason guidelines and also the 9th Report of the firearms consultative committee. These guys go into detail on components and parts. 

Between the both documents I think I've established good reason for everything I require. I'm going to stick my list down on a variation and see how it goes. I already have good reason established for a 243 a 22Lr and a 223 so that should makes things easer going forward. 

I like the idea of keeping my good reason away from a shooting club if possible so I won't constantly need to be a member of one club or another. I'd like to be able to just turn up at shoots and pay for guest use when I want to target shoot and zero. That's the route I'm going to try to go down. If anyone else uses this method it would be great to know. 

 

 

 

[Popsbengo]

5 hours ago, Christian.. said:

Thanks Mattnall,

I'm having a run up my local club today to have a chat and collect some ammo whilst there.

I've been reading through the home office good reason guidelines and also the 9th Report of the firearms consultative committee. These guys go into detail on components and parts. 

Between the both documents I think I've established good reason for everything I require. I'm going to stick my list down on a variation and see how it goes. I already have good reason established for a 243 a 22Lr and a 223 so that should makes things easer going forward. 

I like the idea of keeping my good reason away from a shooting club if possible so I won't constantly need to be a member of one club or another. I'd like to be able to just turn up at shoots and pay for guest use when I want to target shoot and zero. That's the route I'm going to try to go down. If anyone else uses this method it would be great to know. 

Unless you have Target Shooting on your FAC you can't 'just turn up and pay as a guest' at any legitimate target range.  You may get away with shooting at an ad-hoc 'zeroing' range like Garlands / Catton Park (Staffs) but no target shooting club should legally accept you to shoot as a guest (with only shooting over land FAC) except possibly on a bona-fide prearranged and notified guest day.

 

[Christian..]

Thanks for the info,

My Fac isn't restricted to any particular land and also states zeroing practice on ranges. Is this normal ? I usually just zero on the land I shoot on. 

[Popsbengo]

3 minutes ago, Christian.. said:

Thanks for the info,

My Fac isn't restricted to any particular land and also states zeroing practice on ranges. Is this normal ? I usually just zero on the land I shoot on. 

You are missing the point I think mate.  You can't shoot on a target range as a target shooter without being a member of a bona-fide target shooting club.

Zeroing isn't 'target shooting'  (beyond the obvious)

[Christian..]

Right,

My closest ranges state membership available or visitors rates apply. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this for being able to shoot without being a member. 

[Popsbengo]

30 minutes ago, Christian.. said:

Right,

My closest ranges state membership available or visitors rates apply. Maybe I'm misinterpreting this for being able to shoot without being a member. 

I'd discuss this with them.  A visitor still needs to meet Home Office rules.

[Christian..]

5 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

I'd discuss this with them.  A visitor still needs to meet Home Office rules.

Thanks again. I did find this and did some more digging on the subject. From what I can gather you can shoot with hunting rifles on a range as a visitor as but not enter competitions. You'd probably not want to make a habit out of doing it all of the time without adding Target shooting to the FAC. I'm going to try to do this as I don't want to join a club but would like to use a few rages initially a few times a year. I suppose it's all down to the range and what they say in the end. I can't see how shooting at a target to check zero is different from shooting at a target in any other aspect though. I would be a hard one to prove in front of a judge should you be in the wrong unknowingly. 

I have an 'Open ticket' obviously allowing me to shoot on land I deem suitable, BUT does this allow me to target shoot at a local club which is in the process of setting up a rimfire range? 

I know that if you have a ticket which states 'Target shooting' you are not allowed to then hunt with your rifle, but is it the same the other way round.
Just to be clear, I will not do anything until I am 110% certain of the law, but see no harm in asking the question on here in the first instance

You should be OK. This question came up only last month…. link at end.

Every FAC should have the standard Home Office condition, and this automatically covers zeroing on MOD and Home Office Approved Club (HOAC) ranges. You do not need a separate Condition to do this if your FAC has the standard one (below). 

The *calibre RIFLE/COMBINATION/SMOOTH-BORE GUN/SOUND MODERATOR and ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin including fox, and ground game/ deer (delete as appropriate) and any other lawful quarry, and for zeroing on ranges, on land deemed suitable by the chief officer of police for the area where the land is situated and over which the holder has lawful authority to shoot.

(The words underlined may be omitted once the certificate holder has demonstrated competence. There is no set time for this and each case should be considered on its individual merits).


HOAC’s and HOAC Members can’t use any range unless it has the proper public liability & user insurance through the NRA/NSRA scheme or another ‘approved’ insurer….. otherwise the Club, and the shooter breaches the Condition.

Day membership of HOAC’s isn’t allowed, but Visitors with their own FAC can shoot if Clubs with their own ranges allow this. Our club charges non-members £20, with a maximum of 3 visits.


Firearms Clause - Zeroing on a range vs Using on a range

[Mattnall]

To be a target shooter (and not just a zero session on a range) you will need to be a member of a club. You can visit other clubs subject to their rules and enter competitions etc. Also your target rifle(s) could also be your hunting rifle(s).

Being a club member should give you liability insurance but it is always good to have your own to cover your equipment as well.

[Christian..]

Thanks guys,

This is all great stuff and I'm learning allot. It seems that as I already have a FAC with "zeroing on ranges" I can turn up to a range as a guest pay the man and use my rifles to shoot at targets to check zero. Where this is different form just shooting at a targets I'm not sure. It would be difficult to define it from the observer point. 

It also looks like I can ask to have" target shooting" applied to my FAC just to be safe for free without actually joining a gun club too. This would be the best way. Theoretically you could enter competitions like this too. 

I suppose the catch is that if you wanted a rifle specifically for shooting at targets that you would then have to join a club to justify good reason for that rifle. 

[Popsbengo]

Hi Christian

I think you are skirting around the issue.  there's whole lot of difference between zeroing and target shooting - it's not ambiguous so best of luck in court with that one!

Zeroing is sufficient rounds to calibrate the sights.  If you need more than 5 you're having a bad day.  Any target shooting club that allows you to guest and shoot is likely to fall foul of the FEO sooner than later.

Also, rimfire smallbore has an exemption (for fairground galleries etc) so don't read that across to centre fire.

[Popsbengo]

4 minutes ago, Christian.. said:

Thanks guys,

This is all great stuff and I'm learning allot. It seems that as I already have a FAC with "zeroing on ranges" I can turn up to a range as a guest pay the man and use my rifles to shoot at targets to check zero. Where this is different form just shooting at a targets I'm not sure. It would be difficult to define it from the observer point. 

It also looks like I can ask to have" target shooting" applied to my FAC just to be safe for free without actually joining a gun club too. This would be the best way. Theoretically you could enter competitions like this too. 

I suppose the catch is that if you wanted a rifle specifically for shooting at targets that you would then have to join a club to justify good reason for that rifle. 

you can't have target shooting unless you are a member of a target club.  You would have to do probation, a minimum of three months and sufficient shoots to be considered.

By the way, you won't get near a MoD range without being a probationer under supervision or holding a SCC (NRA safe shooters card)

[Christian..]

Yes I can see what your saying,

What I'm saying is its obviously a grey area. I beg to differ with respect to 5 rounds. What if someone wants to check zero different bullets at different zero distances. And just generally see how different loads affect zeroing. Or as you stated are having some technical issues with the rifle. It would not be easy to define. Shooting at a target is shooting at a target. And who would be counting. 

As a side note looking around the internet guys have been advised by FAO's to just not enter competitions if using a range. I'd like to see an example of someone being prosecuted.

It also appears that you can have Target shooting on a FAC without being a member of a shooting club. I'd be interested if any one can conform this. People seem to have done it without paying for a variation. 

Guys that soot over land also have FMJ on their tickets for targets too. Seems allot of grey area in this.

Let's not forget that you initially told me you can't shoot on a range without being a member of a club full stop. 

And for the record before I visit a range with my own rifles to zero i'll defiantly try to obtain target shooting to be safe what's to lose by doing this.

[Popsbengo]

12 minutes ago, Christian.. said:

Yes I can see what your saying,

What I'm saying is its obviously a grey area. I beg to differ with respect to 5 rounds. What if someone wants to check zero different bullets at different zero distances. And just generally see how different loads affect zeroing. Or as you stated are having some technical issues with the rifle. It would not be easy to define. Shooting at a target is shooting at a target. And who would be counting. 

As a side note looking around the internet guys have been advised by FAO's to just not enter competitions if using a range. I'd like to see an example of someone being prosecuted.

It also appears that you can have Target shooting on a FAC without being a member of a shooting club. I'd be interested if any one can conform this. People seem to have done it without paying for a variation. 

Guys that soot over land also have FMJ on their tickets for targets too. Seems allot of grey area in this.

Let's not forget that you initially told me you can't shoot on a range without being a member of a club full stop. 

And for the record before I visit a range with my own rifles to zero i'll defiantly try to obtain target shooting to be safe what's to lose by doing this.

You do what you think is right.  Best of British

[Christian..]

25 minutes ago, Popsbengo said:

you can't have target shooting unless you are a member of a target club.  You would have to do probation, a minimum of three months and sufficient shoots to be considered.

By the way, you won't get near a MoD range without being a probationer under supervision or holding a SCC (NRA safe shooters card)

Thanks, 

I've shot on most of the the MOD rages in the country, during the day and night time just not a a civvi. It's the non MOD ranges I'd use to zero as they are closer and therefore more convent. Seems as though you have an issue with guys who are not members of a shooting club using a range. 

[Popsbengo]

1 minute ago, Christian.. said:

Thanks, 

I've shot on most of the the MOD rages in the country, during the day and night time just not a a civvi. It's the non MOD ranges I'd use to zero as they are closer and therefore more convent. Seems as though you have an issue with guys who are not members of a shooting club using a range. 

Not sure the relevance of non-civvi shooting but never mind.  Just trying to offer some guidance as I'm reasonably well informed as Secretary of a target shooting club.  If you can get to do what you want then best of luck to you and any club that lets you shoot as a guest.