Choice of 6.5

[Popsbengo]

I'm planning a new rifle for 1000yd accuracy.  Looking at Berger's reloading manual I'm struck that 6.5 Creedmore, 260 Remington, 6.5x55 Swed., and 6.5x47 Lap all have very similar external ballistics with the same bullets using the same powder choices.  What's the opinion regarding the benefit choice one over the others and why?

[terryh]

Pbg 

Recurring question at our club also! 

All of those cartridges will work and if you miss it would not be down the the cartridge 😁

logical choice would be the creed, good selection of off the shelf rifles and availability of brass etc.

I shoot a 6.5x47 as the Creed was not really available when I went the 6.5 route.

Though in saying that, if I was starting again now I’d go for a 6-6.5x47, which does not really help you (apologies)

Terry

[meles meles]

6.5x55 Norsqueagian, Pops. A proper Viking cartridge with over 100 years of pedigree behind it. We have several rifles chambered for it, some of them now in their third century, and all capable of knocking that young Creedmoor whippersnapper into a cocked hat.

 

Slightly greater powder capacity will allow you to use a slower burning powder to prolong barrel life whilst still matching or beating the velocities available with the lesser cartridges.

[Triffid]

Have you looked at Laurie Hollands review of the 6.5's?

here's the last one http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=2353

Triffid

[VarmLR]

The two main players imho are the ubiquitous 6.5 x 55 and the 6.5CM.  Why those two?

Well, the 6.5 x 55 has been with us a long time and brass is available just about everywhere for it.  It's lower pressure/larger volume design means greater brass (and barrel life) and it remains an accurate calibre, with loads of sporting rifle (and ammunition) availability. I can't see this shrinking back into obscurity any time soon (not that it ever was).

The 6.5 CM has succeeded commercially where the much older 260 Rem did not.  Who'd have thought that a (for all intents and purposes) necked down slightly smaller cased cartridge than the 260 Rem would succeed where it failed?  I can only assume that the 260 for some reason was way ahead of its time and just never took off partly down to the 30 cal being the defacto military cal of choice for so long and also of comp shooters for many years as well as hunters (the Do it all cartridge).

Why then the 6.5 CM over the Lapua 6.5 x 47?  Well, I was torn between the two and for me, the lack of factory offerings and ammo was definitely against the Lapua, the darling of so many custom gunsmiths and comp shooters and deservedly so.  When I saw that Lapua were offering the small primer version of brass for the 6.5 CM, that sold it to me.  A very similar cartridge design to the Lapua 6.5 x 47 but with greater case capacity and the ability to shoot the heavier bullets at higher velocities without going too high on pressures.

I tried lots of different bullets with the CM, and like Laurie, found that it performed best with the heavier 139/140grn ones shot at between 2700 and 2800fps.  Just recently I developed a load with RS62, which exhibits almost identical load/energy characteristics of the now banned (for sales) H4350 and the Hornady 140gr SST.  Sub 1/4 inch groups in small primer brass using 43.6gr RS62.  The group below shot this week shows two bullets through the same hole and one dropped slightly low.  This was using SRP brass which requires more than 1.5gr more charge to obtain similar velocities to LRP loads so don't try and emulate this in standard brass!!!

 To arrive at this loading using standard brass (LRP) then you'd be looking at roughly a shade under 42gr RS62 or slightly less, so very much in the same ballpark as Laurie's findings with his 140gr bullets (bearing in mind also that the primers used here were not "hot" cooking varieties but thicker, "magnum" primer cups).

 

 

The results with 139 Scenars were similar, helping me to win a 100 yd "tightest group" comp last year, much to the chagrin of those normally taking the contest with .223's!  To shoot sub half moa in 16 to 23mph gusting winds with 5 shots was a challenge that the 6.5CM/139 Scenar was luckily up to.

The 139gr groups average .25 inch with a personal best (5 shot) of 0.18 inches.  This is a pretty typical 100yd group with the Scenar:

All the above are from a standard factory Tikka Tac A1 6.5 CM, fast becoming my favourite rifle to shoot from my collection.

At 1000 yds, it's a similar story to Laurie's findings, with the TicTac shooting 139 Scenars consistently into sub moa groups, more often than not 3/4moa,  which from a factory rifle, is impressive stuff.

My money is on the 6.5CM not being a "flash in the pan" but is here to stay and can be thought of as a slightly larger version of the 6.5 x 47 Lapua, complete with 30 degree shoulder angle.  The 'x47 has it's die-hard admirers and so many win comps V's CM because so many more shoot in comp than CM!  I can't think, from seeing the results of both at 1000 yds, there's any advantage in accuracy of one over the other.  Sadly, I do see the 260 Rem as slowly sinking back into obscurity, this backed by all accounts by current sales figures of the two, a trend that is probably set to continue with the advent of increased choice of factory offerings for the (now decade old!) "new kid on the block" and its similarities with the inherently accurate 6.5 x 47 Lapua.  Just my tuppenceworth.

If I was starting out again and not after an all rounder for light to medium game as well as target, I'd probably go with the 7mm-08 Rem, or similar offering, as the 7mm has a similar advantage over any 6.5 chambering as the 6.5 has over the 30 cal.  For comp, there's "no substitute for large CC's"  and the larger, slippier bullet wins out every time hence why more seem to be going over to the 7mm.  For me, the costs outweigh the advantages as my need is for an all rounder and here the 6.5CM still ticks all the boxes for me.

[Scotch_egg]

If you want to shoot 1000 yards then I like the look of 6.5PRC. 

Factory 147gr ELD-M at 3070fps. 

[Popsbengo]

Lots of excellent info thanks.  Creedmore seems to shade it but only just.  I like the fact that the bolt face is the same as the 308 so re-tubing my rifle is straight forward.  I'm not too bothered about any extra life in the barrel by using 6.5 Swede and the possible head/bolt problem is a factor so it's 6.5CM for me.

A boringly predictable choice but maybe why it's so popular😁  I've also shot Creedmore and personal experience only re-enforces my likely choice.

[No i deer]

There's the usual 6.5's then there's the high performance 6.5's,depends what your after and there is the trade off with barrel life. I've got a 6.5x47 and it's great, I can't see what I stand to gain by changing to another 6.5 cal, the 6.5x47 is very accurate and efficient.

[jcampbellsmith]

32 minutes ago, No i deer said:

There's the usual 6.5's then there's the high performance 6.5's,depends what your after and there is the trade off with barrel life. I've got a 6.5x47 and it's great, I can't see what I stand to gain by changing to another 6.5 cal, the 6.5x47 is very accurate and efficient.

It depends what one is looking for, but to me the 6.5 Creedmoor wins hands down with the ready availability of factory ammunition. To be able to buy factory target, non-lead and traditional soft point ammunition is a major factor in selecting which cartridge I'm going to shoot. I'm looking in time to convert from 260 Rem to 6.5 Creedmoor.

Regards

JCS

[Ronin]

Creedmoor holds 52.5 g H2O (S/A)

260 Rem 53.5 g H2O (S/A)

6.5 SKAN (Swede) 57.9 (long action )

6.5x 284 68.3 g H2O (long action)

6.5 x 47 holds 45 g H2O (S/A)

Whereas 260 improved 57.5 g H2O

So the logical choice for me to run 140 g bullets would be 260 Rem due to the greater case capacity 

 

Regardless of “fashion “ and an improved if you reload ,,,,,,

 

 

[baldie]

The .260's main drawback has always been its inability to hit the land with a 140 grain bullet, out of a standard short action magazine. 

If you are shooting jump intolerant bullets, it can be a nightmare to tune.

You could always go short throat, but that can compromise case capacity.

I've long held the belief, that its better built on a long action. You can then tailor everything to get the best out of the case with a long bullet.

I've seen a resurgence in it lately though, with about half a dozen built in the last six months, and one coming in just an hour ago for a .260 barrel.

The Creed was designed from the outset to sit a 140 in the lands from a std magazine, with room to spare.

I own all three of the smaller cased variants, and to be honest, there is little between them. The creed just seems to do it all, over the others.

6.5 PRC ?

I believe l/a and magnum bolt face ?, and only Hornady brass, which is not the best choice for full throttle shooting.

I think if I was going to build a top end 6.5 that ran about maximum, it would be a 6.5 x 55 AI, with a long barrel.

That would be something with a 7 twist barrel for the heavy 6.5 bullets.

[Popsbengo]

3 minutes ago, baldie said:

The .260's main drawback has always been its inability to hit the land with a 140 grain bullet, out of a standard short action magazine. 

If you are shooting jump intolerant bullets, it can be a nightmare to tune.

You could always go short throat, but that can compromise case capacity.

I've long held the belief, that its better built on a long action. You can then tailor everything to get the best out of the case with a long bullet.

I've seen a resurgence in it lately though, with about half a dozen built in the last six months, and one coming in just an hour ago for a .260 barrel.

The Creed was designed from the outset to sit a 140 in the lands from a std magazine, with room to spare.

I own all three of the smaller cased variants, and to be honest, there is little between them. The creed just seems to do it all, over the others.

6.5 PRC ?

I believe l/a and magnum bolt face ?, and only Hornady brass, which is not the best choice for full throttle shooting.

I think if I was going to build a top end 6.5 that ran about maximum, it would be a 6.5 x 55 AI, with a long barrel.

That would be something with a 7 twist barrel for the heavy 6.5 bullets.

that sounds like a tempting alternative - like Badger suggested, slower and longer burn powder choices

[baldie]

The improved swede used to be popular with the 1000 yards gang at Diggle a few years ago. It took many scalps I believe.

Only fell from favour when the good 7mm bullets started appearing and the .284 win was reborn.

[The Gun Pimp]

6.5x55 Improved. That takes me back a good few years when that was the 'go to' 1000 yard benchrest round. Fireforming, neck turning and no off the shelf dies. Then along came the 6.5-284 with Lapua brass...........

[VarmLR]

The other deceptive thing when reading comparative case capacities of the 260 V's Creed' is that with high BC 140gr bullets, the 260 has little to no advantage in effective charge volume because the bullet has to sit deeper into the case negating any paper advantage it might have with lighter, shorter bullets.  I hadn't considered the improved L/A 6.5 x 55 baldie...that's quite a good shout if it (as you rightly point out) hadn't been for the 7mm taking over.

[meles meles]

1 minute ago, VarmLR said:

 I hadn't considered the improved L/A 6.5 x 55 baldie...that's quite a good shout if it (as you rightly point out) hadn't been for the 7mm taking over.

By that argument, Pops should be focusing on a buying a Rarden. 

 

Go for the 6.5x55 AI, Pops, you know it makes sense. We may even let you try our CG63 to sharpen your appetite.

[VarmLR]

?????  Under what logic do you get to a 30mm autocannon from a 7mm?  Good grief man!

That is not the argument I made....in fact I didn't think I was making any argument, just stating the obvious.  Serious target comp shooters have migrated to 7mm from 6,5 for 1000yds due to the blindingly obvious BC advantages of doing so.  If serious comp isn't the aim, then I was recommending the 6.5CM....up until baldie lobbed in the excellent suggestion of the 6.5 x 55 improved.

 

[No i deer]

How fast do you want to launch a 139 to 147gr bullet,windrift wise again very little in the 6.5's, you'd have to go out too 1000yds to see the difference 

Anybody have comparisons at hand.

According to my bal cal my 27 inch barrel will launch a 139gr scenars at 2836fps at 55f.

Adjusted my bal cal velocity by 100fps faster and it a 3.5 inch gain in full value 10mph wind.

The extra 100fps is only 1.5 inch gain in a 5mph half value wind 😉🤔

[Chikentikka]

Looked at the 6.5x284? 140 eld m at 2950 with n165, not too hot either. Out of a 24" barrel. Bergers are more accurate but not too good on deer.

[Re-Pete]

I've shot my 6.5x47 at 1200yds using 123gn Scenars with 41.5 grains of RS60 at 3050fps. (30" 8-twist Lothar barrel, may not be safe in your rifle)

Wind was a big problem, although I did get one "V"..............According to Litz, they were doing 1240fps at 1200yds, so still just supersonic.

Pete

[Chanonry]

On 5/29/2019 at 5:28 PM, Popsbengo said:

I'm planning a new rifle for 1000yd accuracy.  Looking at Berger's reloading manual I'm struck that 6.5 Creedmore, 260 Remington, 6.5x55 Swed., and 6.5x47 Lap all have very similar external ballistics with the same bullets using the same powder choices.  What's the opinion regarding the benefit choice one over the others and why?

None. They are all as bad as each other 😂.

6.5 CM "you can get factory ammo" yes loaded by Hornady. The same people who don't seem to be able to make two bullets the same length or decent brass. Feel free...

260 mag length, heavy bullets and loading depth issues.

Swede is just an oddball that doesn't do anything the others can't but is longer and takes more powder. So the CM fanboys tell me.

Lapua can't get ammo. Really.

The "benefits" is an exercise in hair splitting of the finest dimensions...

[Ronin]

Yep

 

go 7mm 

 

much easier 😂😂

[baldie]

There is a whole host of factory ammo available for the creedmoor, that's not a fair point.

Hornady, Norma, S + B , etc are all available here. I believe the guys at Northallerton shooting keep about six brands in, in both hunting and target loads.

[Richiew]

7x284  one long slippy bullet with a big load of bang behind it  RS 62 powder. Seen a few of these lately in the club for the longrange boys 

[Brillo]

FWIW, I am the lucky owner of both, until my 47 sells on here.

A few replies have already correctly stated how accurate the 6.5x47 is and I FAC confirm that. I’ve found it almost insanely accurate. In my experience it’s best with 120/123 grain bullets and IMHO these aren’t really suitable for 1000 yards.

Where the Creedmoor scores (no pun intended) is the ease with which it shoots at longer ranges.

I have a Creedmoor smithed by Baldy and it just walks 900 and 1000 yards. I’ve not tried it against 7mm canons but that’s not what it was made for.