Pellet Gun Pete Posted January 6, 2019 Report Share Posted January 6, 2019 Hello, I've been shooting rats, rabbits, pigeons, and covids on a 500 acre dairy farm for 12 months, with a 12fpe airgun. The farmer recently had a real issue with foxes and asked me to get something sorted. I've just got my FAC and SGC through, and although I asked for a .223, .22lr and 17hmr I was only granted 17hmr and .22rf (not lr). My question is, as I've got 22rf, am I better getting a 22wmr for fox, rather than a 17hmr? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob57 Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 Hi PGP, you've been granted a 22RF which is a 22lr but you already have a 22rf ?? Yes definitely try to change the .17 hmr to a 22 wmr, .17 hmr does not have enough energy to be a humane fox round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topscots1 Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 22rf is not a 22lr, it is any rimfire calibrate. The 22 wmr, is a good close range fox round. Not the most popular Cali relationship, you can get a real bargain on a quality used rifle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellet Gun Pete Posted January 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 I was quite surprised to see 22rf as they wouldn't give me 223. Maybe they thought, as I wanted the 223 for fox, 22rf gave me a better option than 17hmr without giving me a centre fire? I was thinking 22lr would be good for close range, quiet, cheap ammo. Now I'm torn between a 22lr or a 22wmr, although ammo choice seems very limited. I've also got .22 air rifle.... Maybe I should try swapping that for a second rimfire? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chanonry Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 Well you may want to think about this a bit. It depends on your personal circumstances which we obviously don't understand, but there is nothing wrong with entering into a bit of a conversation with them to try a bit harder to justify a 223 (or something like it) rather than what they are trying to push on you. Picking a fight won't get you anywhere but if you point out the problems then it may. If you read their own advice https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/518193/Guidance_on_Firearms_Licensing_Law_April_2016_v20.pdf Its advice not law but it constrains them a bit and gives you a decent argument. If you have not seen this before, there is a table on page 123 which lists cartridges against suitable quarry species. The section relating to foxes with the rf cartridges generally shows these cartridges to be unsuitable except as defined by note 13.25. (it does state that 17HMR is suitable but you should be able to argue that it is equally low powered/wind affected and is not normally considered/used as a foxing round) So... On page 110. 13.25 Although not set out in legislation, common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes, they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfires are generally considered as having insufficient muzzle energy to be used against foxes in most circumstances. However, these could be suitable for use at short range by experienced persons, and may be permitted in certain situations such as around farm buildings or paddocks. It is for the operator to ensure that the quarry species are shot at the appropriate range with the appropriate ammunition to achieve a humane kill. Combination shotgun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes. Those involved in shooting foxes will normally be authorised to possess up to 250 rounds, but consideration should be given to each shooter’s individual circumstances, particularly where re-loaders are acquiring missiles. See also paragraph 13.9 on allowing the applicant flexibility to reasonably shoot other species on named land. So if you are not shooting at super close range you should point them to this and argue that they are insufficient to ensure a humane kill at your expected ranges (lets say 100 to 150 yards !) and it is notable that the range of suitable cartridges starts at 17 Remington and goes up. 223 being a common choice somewhere in the middle. I understand their caution, first FAC etc, but they need to give you a tool that can do the job. Dunno, but it is a thought... If you are in BASC you could phone them. They have always been helpful in the past even when I wasn't a member !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Hancock Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 Chanonry - First Happy New Year. Second a good post for Pellet Gun Pete - even for experienced smart arses like me - I took a lot out of it. Thank you. Pellet Gun - there is a general confusion over .22RF and .22LR - at least from my experience. .22lr is a specific calibre, i.e. .22 Long Rifle .22rf is a collective denotion for any .22 RimFire cartridge, e.g. .22 short, .22 long rifle, .22 WMR etc etc **Correct me if I'm wrong chaps I have a .22LR for fox but would never use it for ranges over 80metres. I used a .17HMR for fox and dispatched over 600 on a pig farm with very few runners and only at ranges of 80 yards, head shot only but sold it due to MY concerns over ammunition quality. (What are the quarry conditions on your .17HMR ?) I have recently sold a 17Hornet for the reason that - despite all the American marketing hype - it is not - IMHO and on my permissions - an effective fox calibre for 200 metres as claimed. I've gone back to .223. Better ammunition range and allows for Muntjac and CWD I have always found BASC excellent and never just shove in a request for a calibre without a couple of supporting notes giving experience and reason together with my range experience and DSC1. There are also differences between regional Forces in interpretation, allowance of a calibre and wording. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob57 Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 Sorry PGP when I replied last night, I'd just got in from 5 hours foxing on the back of a landrover, knackered, and didn't read you right. Firearms licencing don't like granting c/f on first certificate, so when my son applied for his certificate a couple of years ago he sat down with the feo and explained all the experience he had had over the years being out foxing and lamping for me, I had allways let him shoot a target with me while load testing/zeroing, which he also showed, feo was satisfied with what he'd heard and seen and cert came back with .223 .17hmr and 22rf. Not one fox has fallen to his hmr but plenty to the .223. talk to your feo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellet Gun Pete Posted January 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 Maybe I need to give you guys a little more background. I did have a long and constructive talk with the feo during my "visit". And I made it clear that I thought the 223 would be more humane. The farm already has clearance for 22cf, so that wasn't the issue. She simply said that as I'd had no experience, and I didn't know anyone who could "mentor" me, she didn't think I'd get it. However, the foxes will be close, I'm talking 100yards MAXIMUM, they are often seen wandering around the farm in daylight. So in reality I'm thinking a 22wmr will be plenty good enough, and probably the hmr too? Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob57 Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 Buy a 22 wmr, bait a nice safe spot, good backstop on the farm at Say 80yds and zero it for that bait spot or know exactly where it's shooting at that range and sit in a hi seat if poss. Buy a scope that will cope well with night vision, you'll probably end up there if serious about fox control on the farm!! Get a years shooting out of the 22wmr then apply for a 1 for 1 variation on the hmr for a 223, be safe and happy shooting👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellet Gun Pete Posted January 7, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 There's an RFD near me selling a CZ452 22wmr with a scope for well under £200... I think I'll have a look at it 🙂 Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashcroft Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 6 hours ago, Pellet Gun Pete said: There's an RFD near me selling a CZ452 22wmr with a scope for well under £200... I think I'll have a look at it 🙂 Pete BARGAIN, get it bought i.love mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sam39 Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 7 hours ago, Bob57 said: Buy a 22 wmr, bait a nice safe spot, good backstop on the farm at Say 80yds and zero it for that bait spot or know exactly where it's shooting at that range and sit in a hi seat if poss. Buy a scope that will cope well with night vision, you'll probably end up there if serious about fox control on the farm!! Get a years shooting out of the 22wmr then apply for a 1 for 1 variation on the hmr for a 223, be safe and happy shooting👍 This is spot on. You may well find after you have shot the daft ones the rest may be over 100m. Generally people moving into rifle shooting and center fires often under gun. .223 is a perfect fox round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moorlander Posted January 7, 2019 Report Share Posted January 7, 2019 Unless you intend reloading go for .223 for fox, loads of reasonably priced ammo choices . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellet Gun Pete Posted January 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 Well that was interesting.... Or disappointing... Both actually. Went to the local RFD who had the 22wmr. Wow what a lovely gun, just one minute scratch on the stock. However, he asked if I had magnum on my license. I said no, I've got 22rf. He said he couldn't sell it to me as I needed wmr on my ticket. We didn't argue, I said I'd contact the Staffordshire firearms unit. He kindly rang them there and then, and asked if RF meant I could buy the magnum. They said no, only a 22lr. So, it seems as far as Staffordshire are concerned RF means LR, very confusing. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moorlander Posted January 9, 2019 Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Pellet Gun Pete said: Well that was interesting.... Or disappointing... Both actually. Went to the local RFD who had the 22wmr. Wow what a lovely gun, just one minute scratch on the stock. However, he asked if I had magnum on my license. I said no, I've got 22rf. He said he couldn't sell it to me as I needed wmr on my ticket. We didn't argue, I said I'd contact the Staffordshire firearms unit. He kindly rang them there and then, and asked if RF meant I could buy the magnum. They said no, only a 22lr. So, it seems as far as Staffordshire are concerned RF means LR, very confusing. Pete If you are new to FAC`s then you`ll soon find that many Firearms Department dont know what they are talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazzarM1 Posted January 9, 2019 Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 A total lack of consistency …..I am under Lancs and have not long purchased a 22wmr on a 22 rimfire slot from a dealer in GMP area...not even a raised eyebrow,. Some of these people do not have a scooby doo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellet Gun Pete Posted January 9, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 My guess is, people (who should know better) hear the word "magnum", and Dirty Harry springs to mind? 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob57 Posted January 9, 2019 Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 Buy a 17 hmr, head shoot all your foxes at 100 yds and less when the winds not blowing ,don't hit any on the nose though, use it for a year then like I said before do a 1 for 1 variation for a 223 . Hmr will be handy for the bunnies aswell😃. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cat Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 On 1/7/2019 at 10:18 AM, David Hancock said: I used a .17HMR for fox ... only at ranges of 80 yards, head shot only .. And Bob57 has just said the same thing which made me wonder. A couple of people have said to me recently that in their opinion .17hmr is good for a heart/lung shot on a fox up to 100 yards. I'm sceptical but what do the jury think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob57 Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 18 minutes ago, Paul Cat said: And Bob57 has just said the same thing which made me wonder. A couple of people have said to me recently that in their opinion .17hmr is good for a heart/lung shot on a fox up to 100 yards. I'm sceptical but what do the jury think? I wouldn't say its good for a heart/lung shot up to a 100yds , it will stop some, but you'll also be looking for some of them, not in the place where you shot them , that's why most people head shoot with the 17 hmr but if you get it wrong and hit the nose you won't be finding the fox and that's a horrible death😞. So if you buy one practice until you can really shoot it accurately and not in the wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cat Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Thanks Bob. I own one already (unless your "If you buy one"was intended for the OP) and am managing one inch groupings at 100-120 yards. I wasn't even contemplating fox with a 17hmr until recently when three people assured me it was good enough up to 100 yards. Now with the comments above....the need for a headshot (which I am okay with on a static target but the head's the part most likely to move suddenly) and the consequences of hitting the snout I'm doubting again. I really don't want a slow, horrible death on my conscience. I've seen a few brought down with 223 and 243 and that's an instant kill. The 'ummmm, maybe' feeling that I'm getting now about the lighter gun makes me think I should be applying for an addition to my FAC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellet Gun Pete Posted January 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 There does seem to be an awful lot of people who believe the 17hmr is worse than other similar calibers in the wind. So did I... Until I saw this.. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob57 Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Sorry Paul cat it was intended for PGP,sounds like you're shooting it well,good grouping😃 PGP I didn't say it was worse in the wind than other similar calibres, it's just not good. That vid proved my theory that with small bullets the faster you get them to the target the less they get blown off course, that's one reason I always try to get a good fast load, but a .17 2550fps is totally different to a .17 4350 fps and if you ever put 50 .17 hmr rounds through a crony you'll see they vary massively in fps . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outlanda Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 I use 17hmr for foxes up to 100yds usually whilst lamping head or neck shot and not a problem but always ready for a follow up shot. Not all my land is suitable for 223. 17hmr ammo available locally where as 22wmr is not. 22wmr will exit head and will ricochet. 30gr hornady vmax best performance just finding it become an issue. Tried 17 hornet and similar but have returned to 223/20 practical options but 17 hmr sako quad gets more use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remmy308 Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 Seeing as your local fet wouldn’t let you have a .223 on your first ticket couldn’t you have a bit of a conversation with them and maybe ask for a .22 hornet as a compromise between the hmr and the 223. itll give you the required distance and stopping power for your fox problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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