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I've been thinking about it for a while now and I fancy trying it out more from curiosity.

Is it worth spending the money on the tooling or not.if yes what bullet pointer should I buy and why.

My press is a Lee challenger if that makes a difference to what pointer i can purchase.

Would I need to redevelope my load or will the pointing not change it's current accuracy at say 100yds.

Cheers No I deer 

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It really only shows up at extreme ranges - i.e. 800 - 1000 yds.  If you shoot F Class competitively it might gain you a point or two but otherwise 'pointless'!

I remember running a test with Laurie - shooting at 1000 yds if I remember.  Laurie was shooting pointed and non-pointed bullets and I was plotting the shots - the pointed bullets were impacting about one MOA highter.

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Thanks Vince.

I am not shooting competitive f class so it doesnt sound essential then.

It might be better to find somebody to point me 100 to experiment with then.

If the elevation gain is 1 moa at 1000yds what would the windage gain be in say a 10mph full value wind.

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If you have a straight .284 and run Berger VLDs at say 2900 fps, according to JBM Ballistics, a full MOA gain in elevation at 1000 yards would occur at 2950 fps without pointing. The corresponding reduction in windage at 10 mph is 0.2 MOA. Similar results with SMK 180s but a significant increase in drop to start with.

Possibly Vince or Laurie observed an measurable improvement to wind sensitivity during the tests. Some bullets have large meplats, i.e. there is plenty to be gained by pointing, such as Lapua Scenar-L 180 grain.

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I like the 180gr scenar l's and they have a large meplat and they do seat a bit deep.definately need your barrel throated for them unless you use them when the throat has grown some.

I've put some great groups at 1000yds recently.no measurements only what you can see through the scope.orange markers overlapping.

Not sure on this but maybe the Sierra bullets your talking of are for faster than 1 in 9 twist that I have. 

My 7mm saum has just been rebarreled with a f class 30 inch finished 4 groove 9 twister.its throated for hybrids/amaxs.

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1 hour ago, Bianchi said:

If you have a straight .284 and run Berger VLDs at say 2900 fps, according to JBM Ballistics, a full MOA gain in elevation at 1000 yards would occur at 2950 fps without pointing. The corresponding reduction in windage at 10 mph is 0.2 MOA. Similar results with SMK 180s but a significant increase in drop to start with.

Possibly Vince or Laurie observed an measurable improvement to wind sensitivity during the tests. Some bullets have large meplats, i.e. there is plenty to be gained by pointing, such as Lapua Scenar-L 180 grain.

Many would claim that that 0.2MOA wind gain is worth the trouble of pointing - F Class is all about the 4/5 line-cutters.  On a good day they're fives, on a bad day.......  That's where 0.2MOA could make all the difference.

When we tested, I don't remember seeing a noticeable difference in wind-drift but, at 1000 yards in a typical Diggle breeze..........but maybe Laurie will chip in.

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3 minutes ago, No i deer said:

Not sure on this but maybe the Sierra bullets your talking of are for faster than 1 in 9 twist that I have. 

These are the regular 180 grain Sierra Matchkings, not the new 183s. I still use them at 800/900 yards with the Scenars or Berger Hybrids/VLDs at 1000+ yards. 

My mate and I both shoot 7mm Blaser Magnums and he did manage to stabilize the Sierra 183s with promising results by starting them off at 3200 fps using a 30“ 1/9 LoWa Barrel . Don’t believe that the SAUM offers sufficient boiler room for this approach with a 1/9” twist though.

BTW, all bullets do get pointed. I use  Dave’s (Shooting Shed) insert for a Redding seater die.

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There is an article on bullet pointing on Accurate Shooter.

Changes in elevation won't improve groups,nor will small windage changes-they just put the groupin a differnt  position-as will a few clicks on the scope. Vince's point that scores might improve is sound,but remember any such improvement is not the full drift reduction,but the % error reduction your wind reading benefits-and a good wind reader will be around 1mph (inn10) error only....but yes,sometimes a line will be clipped  rather than just missed.

Repointing might bring relatively small improvements -at 1000y,wont see much at 100Y,but so will an equivalent improvemnt in Bullet BC (which is what good pointing does).

  Why not invest in a box of 'better' bullets-since you're throated for Berger Hybrids,and see if there are any improvements-though if you don't actually measure....it's unlikely the effects will be 'visible' from 1000y away....

    Bear in mind that a Whidden pointing system is basic £200,plus £45 per calibre.(But see Bianchi's post).

Pointing is some way down the list of priorities for improving  LR performance-better bullets yes (but Bergers are ...?only £10+ per box premium...hence try them first).What are your dies (Lee press isn't a likely first choice)...better yet,what is the concentricity of your loaded ammo-unless that is very good,there will be more gains in improving that,than pointing at this stage.

From what you say-and as you are fairly happy with current performance,then a considerable investment in pointing does not seem urgent..If you can ge some done,fine-or just buy better bullets....Berger...or....

....Sierra have a 7 mm  183g Match King * 1983 with BC.707  ; and a  197g  *1997 with BC.780....though the latter is getting heavy....

good shooting

gbal

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Bryan Litz originally reckoned on a 3-7% BC improvement in his book Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting, the range affected by 1) reduction in meplat size which is a combination of what size the manufacturer gives you and how much smaller you make it in the pointing die, and 2) calibre, a given meplat diameter varying as a percentage area of the bullet nose and creating more relative drag in small calibres than large.

He actually tests the changes / improvements in a range of calibres and reports on the results in  two ways - average BC change and BC value range size ie consistency - in Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Vol II. The improvements through pointing are much smaller than  originally believed, nothing like 3-7%, more like 3% at best and that uncommon. IIRC one bullet actually saw a marginally lower average BC. What it does do is to create more uniform BCs, ie a smaller range and greater consistency within the contents of an off the shelf box of bullets. The improvement in BC consistency is relatively small so will have nil effect at short range, not a great deal at mid ranges, but is in many cases enough to tighten elevations at long ranges. This is the key benefit for most bullets, not any reduction in wind drift which will be marginal.

My own experience with the Whidden die system is that 1) you have to be careful not to stress the bullet, so with this pointing die at any rate, you do not get really small points as in recently manufactured Sierra MKs. A degree of under-pointing is better than going too far. Bullets must have very small length variations (either through the manufacturer's efforts, or batching, or trimming) to get consistent results, also bullet tips should be lubed with sizing die beforehand. Inconsistent results can actually create a wider range of meplat sizes and hence BCs than the bullets had originally. ...... and 2) it works better on some bullets than others, in fact can apparently produce worse performance on some. I stopped pointing .308 155.5gn Bergers for instance for this reason, and in the end gave up on 0.224 Berger 90gn VLDs (the ones we used in the test Vince mentions). the 180gn 7mm Lapua Scenar likes it though and for older pre factory -pointed 180gn SMKs, it (and BTO batching plus trimming) long-range performance was transformed. (The 180gn SMK is fine in 9-twist barrels incidentally, 1.67 Sg at 2,800 fps; it is the new much longer 183 which needs a faster twist 8.4 or faster being optimum.)

Most factory bullets are MUCH better made than five, certainly 10 years ago. Sierra now factory points all MatchKing models, and does so to a smaller meplat size than the Whidden die can. At the same time, weight, BTO and length  consistencies have all improved enormously for these models. Those of some years back were poor with some batches having very ragged tips with large variations in meplat shape and size, and trimming + pointing made a difference that was noticeable in terms of long-range elevation consistency. Scenar Ls and some Berger Hybrids have relatively large meplats (a deliberate policy in the factory as part of improving product quality and output, the meplat being what the nose forming die ejector pin bears upon when the process is done and the bullet has to be pushed out of the die - that's what gives you the misshapen even sometimes bent tips on crappy a million produced a minute military spec FMJBTs).

So if you want a near perfectly made and pointed bullet, buy a current production lot of SMKs. Then there are the acetyl or whatever tipped bullets from Hornady, Nosler, and Sierra that do the job another way and cannot be pointed of course.

Finally, the pointing die systems aren't cheap and the Whidden one uses three different inserts, needed if you point lots of different shapes of bullet, and also needs a separate aluminium alloy bullet support sleeve for each calibre of bullet you point. (You get one of each with the die as part of the upfront price.)

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Thanks for the replies gents.

I have got some hybrids as these are the go too bullets for this applications.

I bought a 1000 x 180gr scenar l's as they were at a good price.i sold 500 to a mate and slowly using them up the ones I have.when there all gone I will try some of these pointed Sierra's for an experiment.as I only shoot 1 or sometimes twice a month at 1k the expensive Bergers don't disappear too fast.i only usually do one COF with a 7mm and another COF with my 6.5x47 that is real good too.much softer to shoot.i run that on 139gr scenars.thanks for the heads up on the shooting shed.can I use any old Redding die and buy the pointing tooling?

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IFAIK, it’s manufactured for Redding Competion - S seater dies with the micrometer adjustment which is then used to adjust the degree of pointing (carefully). The complete Shooting Shed insert is simply to install after removing the Redding’s case guide and seater stem.

After pointing a sizeable quantity of bullets, the small hole in the pointing insert may fill up with debris but it can easily be removed with a paper clip or similar. BTW, so far I have been able to point all 180 grain bullets wich the same insert.

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John Whidden originally used the die body and top from Forster 'Ultra' seaters as Bianchi says. He now makes his own die bodies / tops for both sizing and seater dies. The seater outwardly looks very like the Forster, and I would imagine that rather than change the dimensions of the bullet sleeve and pointing insert, he has kept the die body internals as per the Forster - but that's pure speculation.

The Shooting Shed made purely internals, so that anybody who already had a Forster Ultra Seating die could adapt it to the pointing role for a lot less money than buying a complete Hoover or Whidden pointing set. I have seen bullets pointed by Dave's internal bits and they had very small and apparently consistent meplats. I don't know if the conversion bits are still available, no doubt Dave ('Ovenpaa' on UKV) will comment. A small bullet platform that fits the press shellholder is also needed for the bullet to sit on.

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2 hours ago, No i deer said:

I have got some hybrids as these are the go too bullets for this applications.

I bought a 1000 x 180gr scenar l's as they were at a good price.i sold 500 to a mate and slowly using them up the ones I have.when there all gone I will try some of these pointed Sierra's for an experiment.

 

Yes, 7mm 180gn Hybrids are 'go to bullets' unless your name is Paul Hill and you don't just win the F-Class European Championships shooting the 180gn Scenar L , you dominate proceedings! On the basis of 'go to' factors, a player in the shooting trade and components world said to me recently that Paul is the European champion despite using the 'wrong' bullet, 'wrong' cartridge, and 'wrong' powder. (Scenar, SAUM, RS70). Bear in mind that 'go to'  sometimes means it is the best the choice, other times just that a few top people won matches largely on skill then everybody copies them ........ until some other top-skilled individual starts winning with something different when the herd thunder after him or her.

As far as SMKs go, I'd very strongly recommend trying the 175gn model not the 180. They have almost the same BC (higher than that of the Scenar for both models), but the 175gn is a longish nose tangent ogive model very like the Berger LRBTs, whilst the 180 is nearly an out and out VLD. The lighter bullet is very much easier to tune and is unaffected by throat wear. It is one of those 'forgotten and unappreciated models' that can give a lot of apparently superior designs a run for the money. Sierra (as with so many Match Kings) let its design work down for years with crap production standards giving ragged tips, inconsistent meplats, and large BTO variations, but has really upped its game recently - the plain and simple result of Berger getting QC so much better than everybody else.

The new 183 is very different kettle of fish from the other two - it is a super long nose, super VLD design with a 28-calibre radius nose section. What I call a Sooper-Hooter' design. As well as needing a fast twist, it will almost certainly be a finicky model.

Incidentally Paul 'points' the Scenars with a Shooting Shed device. With a large (0.080" dia.) meplat, this is a model that really does benefit if the process is done well.

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Ah thanks Laurie. Rob Thomson thought he was using N165.interesting..!

I will get some RS70.A mate probaly has a kilo.would I be right in saying that the RS70 nearly produces RS60 velocities with less pressures.maybe Paul found the perfect combination for the Saum.

I see if you send the shooting shed 30 bullets they will point them and if you like them and buy there pointing tooling the will refund The £8.00 it cost to get them pointed inc postage.sounds fair enough to me.i would need say 35 done so I have enough for a COF inc some for zeroing B)

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On 19/01/2018 at 8:24 PM, No i deer said:

I've been thinking about it for a while now and I fancy trying it out more from curiosity.

Is it worth spending the money on the tooling or not.if yes what bullet pointer should I buy and why.

My press is a Lee challenger if that makes a difference to what pointer i can purchase.

Would I need to redevelope my load or will the pointing not change it's current accuracy at say 100yds.

Cheers No I deer 

You have a world class producer of specialist reloading equipment in the Shooting Shed

They can make pointer systems that are better and cheaper then the Whidden or Hoover products

http://shootingshed.co.uk/oscom/index.php?cPath=40&osCsid=02202d7b575c09ee8d68483cc33a32c7

 

If you want to run a test before committing... 

 

Bullet Pointing Service
[BP001]

The SHED bullet pointing service. How many times have you seen something, read the reviews, it sounds good on paper however is it going to work for you? 

Bullet pointing is one of those unknowns, there is no doubting the potential benefits of pointing bullets for long distance stuff (As an example my 7mm shoots over 1MOA flatter at 1000 yards) The thing is will it work with your bullet and rifle?

Now you can find out without having to buy a bullet pointing system, simply send us 30 of your bullets, we will point and return them. We will need a couple of bullets for set-up however you will receive back a minimum of 25 bullets pointed and ready to test and if you do choose to purchase one of our bullet pointing systems we will knock GBP7.95 off the price.

 

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One doesn’t want the area below the meplat to start bulging and start BC deterioration. I measure and mark the bullet approx. 3mm below the tip (or wherever bulging starts on a sacrificial bullet) with a felt marker and my vernier calibers. The vernier caliper is then locked in this position. Pointing depth is slowly increased until the bullet can’t reach the original mark any more, then turned back a little. Irrespective of the size of the hole, that should be the maximum for that bullet with that pointing insert.

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It was mentioned that when testing the pointed bullets a 7mm can gain 1 moa elevation at 1000yds but was the comparisons done with both lots of bullets shooting exactly the same at 100yds zero before tests began.the pointed bullet could of been shooting 0.5 moa higher at 100yds and only actually gained 0.5 moa at 1000yds.

Just something that occurred to me.

No I deer 

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Same rifle shoots unpointed bullet at 1000y,then pointed version.Bullet POI of each marked/recorded. Repeat for at least  10 shots with each bullet,all in same conditions.

Any difference in the elevation of the 10 unpointed bullets POI group centre,compared to the pointed bullets POI group centre is reasonably attributable to the 'only' difference (or at least the main controlled variable) which is the pointing.

(Of course if there is less (or more) elevation from the pointed at 1000y it will also be there at shorter distances (trajectory) but if the ball park differnce is 1moa at 1000y,then pro rata  ball park will be 1/10 of this at 100y,and that .1moa will be smaller than most rifles can group,and is unlikely to be readily detectable in a few shots.

 It would be  good to repeat the above 1000y firing with several more rifles,each shooting 10 pointed and ten unpointed bullets,to check whether any elevation difference is maintained,although it  need not be the same magnitude in differntly configured rifles.

It is alas,not unknown for "tests" to be skewed by non adherence to basic experimental control proceedures,and much mischief ensues.But it need not be so.Clear reporting helps.

gbal

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