Reloading 223

[VarmLR]

I started with a CZ 1/12 527 .223. Nice enough little rifle, lovely little action. Barrel was clapped and wouldn't shoot anything over 53gr well anyway, so used the action and built a custom 223 using an LW56 L-W 26" 1/8 twist barrel and Boyds stock which I had bedded. It will print .2 inch groups if I do my thing, using 69 TMKs. I shot it at 600 yards a week back for target but did't quite achieve moa (my fault, not the rifles) in changeable wind conditions.

 

If I had a choice of a new 223, I'd see if I could get a Tikka in the optional tighter twist or preferably a Sako 85. Better vfm and imho probably a better rifle than the CZ is the Savage Accustalker. Well worth a look and a very accurate little rifle. Much improved over older models.

[toxo]

gbal: Not so much a change, more the option of more choice for the future. Now retired, I can't justify throwing money on a hobby these days. Have done in the past, fishing , golfing , archery etc etc.

 

Also not a fanatic. Just want a tool for the job. Gets me out in the country and I love it. You won't see me butting my head against a tree if I don't shoot anything.

 

Want as much accuracy as I can afford in case I don't do my bit. Like the idea of reloading to make accuracy as cheap as possible and I think I'm gonna enjoy it as well.

 

Whilst I will probably start with some Lapua for reloading until I find my feet, another of the factors for the .223 is the ability to take advantage of milsurp if I can get it which in my mind might make it cheap enough for rabbits. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm also putting in for a hmr purely for cost reasons. If the 223 can get anywhere near that, the hmr won't get a look in.

 

I'd appreciate some feedback on using 5.6. Which rifles have the action that will take em. I read about seating the bullet nearer the lands of 5.6 actions which apparently aids accuracy? If loading 223 in a 5.6, what are the pitfalls? Does magazine fit come into it?

 

Snakeman: If you've already got .2 why would you want anything else?

[VarmLR]

Toxo

 

....I think it would help to pause for breath and slow down a little. Lets address some of the points that you raise. You seem to want to over-complicate what is really a very straight forwards decision. You want a 22 CF for rabbiting to about 250 yds. 222 or 223 will both do that well and do that with as much acuracy as you'll veer need. You don't need to consider 5.6. Have you seen some groups that 223 is capable of delivering? Lets just say that it is as accurate a round as you'll need.

 

Second thing: You cannot use milsurp for vermin control as it is not S5 expanding which will probably be stipulated on your certificate for shooting live animals. You cannot use FMJ ammo under the current H/O guidelines as your certificate will likely be conditioned for expanding ONLY for use on fox or any other vermin species. Whilst you may not find anything in the Act covering this specifically, you could well be in breach of your conditions plus it could be argued that it might cause undue suffering to use a solid or target round on an animal. It is for that reason that expanding is usually stipulated. There is also a moral issue here.

 

Thirdly, you need to understand the dangers of firing 5.6 milsurp in rifles chambered for 223. They are NOT interchangeable. Sporting .223 Remington is chambered for a max safe pressure of 50,000 CUP whilst military chambering for 5.65 are chambered for 60,000CUP. There are differences in freebore length and throat angle between military chamberings and sporting *(SAAMI) .223 chamberings.

 

Do not use milsurp 5.56 in .223 Remington, period. Use what is designed for it, ie either factory .223 or homeloads which you have loaded to proper guidelines and tested.

 

I just think that you are over-complicating something that doesn't need to be complicated and you definitely do need to read up more before you end up doing something which could be considered as either not within the bounds of your certificate conditions or potentially very unsafe. Just saying.

[gbal]

OK,circumstances noted,though economy at the cost of efficiency teds to be a very false economy.

Pretty much agree with VarmLR-there are also no 'accuracy' 5.56s by design,that are cost effective,let's say.

 

Your cost per round for quality component reloaded ammo is about 51p (the L brss price could be halved,and a bit saved on good bullet too)....45 is easly achievable.

 

'mil surp' begins with Russian 5.56 Wolf/Tula/Barnaul.... 35p shot now if available (it is NOT accurate enough,can't reload steel cases)

RORG (royal Ordinance Radway Green) is UK 5.56 milsurp-variably so so-brass case,but have to get primer crimp out-what fun. Variable supply...maybe £35) ditto german mil surp.

 

 

Better is 'NATO' spec GGG 5.56,around 45p shot....

 

But this is all still 5.56 'military' -as VarmLR and not very accurate,probably illegal,and inhumane...irregular supply-probably a blessing!You are NOT getting premium components.

 

 

Add in the misses and the (0-5)p a shot you MIGHT save soon evaporates (as does pleasure/satisfaction etc). I shoot quite a bit of it in a classy military rifle,but not at small targets-it misses;and no way is it going into my accurate ones.

Nothing to do with bullet seating-it's just not made to be that good....I've had 3 inch 100y 'groups' and goodness/badness knows at longer range.Fig 11s fall OK-big bunny though!

Bullet seating is something to thinkabout after a year or so-it really is very fine tuning (all commercial ammo is set depth-to fit magazines and chambers (SAAMI /CIP specs). You won't hear CISM euro shooters complain about Norma Black Diamond ammo being deficient in accuracy (you pay a lot for that of course).

Good commercial 223 is considerably more than reloaded-not often better,given good reloading-that is where the savings can be made-much of the cost difference is in the brass case not being reused commercially.

 

OK,hope this helps-we've all been there,but milsurp is incompatible with 200y head shot bunnies,even more so on fox,on almost every possible consideration.

Very,very few 5.56 rifles can shoot 1/2 moa(even 1moa)and cost under £500 if you need another reason.

A used Sako 223 often will.

g

[toxo]

It needed saying Varm. Apologies for calling you Snakeman by the way.

 

I didn't realise 5.6 only came in FMJ. The brass is useable though isn't it? I thought the difference is mainly a longer bullet?

[toxo]

That's a 5,6 out the window then.

[gbal]

Correct,5.56 is not suitable (rifle/ammo would not have been 'economical'-except with accuracy-if that's any consolation)..... :-)

g

[snakeman]

 

 

Snakeman: If you've already got .2 why would you want anything else?

 

 

toxo

 

I did not quote the above, but even so, if whatever rifle I was using at a range was consistently printing '.2' groups my objective would be to get that group down to '.1' and do it consistently if at all possible ...To always achieve the status quo and be satisfied, when you believe your rifle is capable of better accuracy seems to be 'the glass half-empty' approach. From picking up a resizing die, then attempting to perfect all the procedures in-between until pulling the trigger is all part of the quest to better myself in all elements of reloading through to shooting. I have much to perfect but, it's all part of a great journey

[gbal]

......a great journey,indeed.Not for everyone,of course.

 

Actually,the legendary Houston tunnel destination is no longer available ,so those sub .1 inch, 5 shot ,100y groups from a regular 223 are unlikely to be seen anytime soon...

 

....and yes,a very few did actually get much smaller groups,with custom 6PPCs

 

gbal

[toxo]

I don't have much time for those who seek perfection by throwing money around, the best car etc but using your own labour, knowledge and intuition does indeed turn it into a worthy goal. Although a Virgo I'm in some ways a lazy one so I'll be using the same virtues on my journey but it won't be as exacting as yours snakeman but I hope you get there.

 

There you go again gbal. "Houston Tunnel"?? 6PPS??

[gbal]

toxo-anyhone intereted in rifle accuracy will pretty soon come across the 6PPC cartridge (not PPS-maybe why you could not find it on eg Accurate Shhooter site-you did look,didn't you? I think it unreasonable to have to say PPC (and then give a description in brackets-you just have to pick up on this sort of stuff if you play in these games-it's hardly an obscure cartidge,having almost all the world 100/200 BR (Oops-that's Bench Rest) records and podiums about every such competition worldwide....think 25 shots in .25 inch and you are ot even in the top ten-that good!) Those who know would rightly get pretty fed up......

Houston is more erudite-so that's fairer-and it's not that easy to google. It was an indoor tunnel facility in Houston,Texas, used with near perfect conditions-to test those 6PPC Bench Rest rifles-or a few others-to see just what the ultimate was...there were a few groups approaching zero-that 5 shots in one hole,the size of the bullet (6mm) at 100y.Real match open air groups under .1 are not very rare-called 'screamers'.....

I'd better stop,otherwise those who get discontented after more than a sentence or two will complain......I made it a rule in 1950,to look up every shooting term/calibre/reference/whatever I came across,and I read a LOT,and there are still newones coming in....you should get the main ideas quite quickly-I wish the likes of Accurate Shooter (and Google) had been around then..it's not essential,though as in all hobbies,it can add to enjoyment if you know a bit.....after all you advocate "using your own knowledge'-which has to be acquired. You might even want a 22BR next time,for more performance and precision,or any of the dozen and more 17 cfs that outclass the HMR.... it's enlightening,and enlightened self interest...:-)

g

[MJR]

I thought it was a disused warehouse not a tunnel? Interesting none the less.

[MJR]

here://www.angelfire.com/ma3/max357/houston.htmlere:

and here:http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/10/18/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-lessons-in-extreme-rifle-accuracy/

[VarmLR]

Here's some more reading on the debate over 5.56 and 223 Toxo which may shed a little more light on things:

 

http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

 

and:

 

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

 

In both cases, it is clear that whilst 5.56 won't turn your Remington chambered 223 into a hand grenade or anything quite so dramatic, the point is that milsurp uses a slightly thicker case (same outside dimensions) and is intended for use in military spec chamberings using longer leade to shoot at lower pressures than they would in .223. Whilst many have, and continue to use 5.56 in SAAMI spec .223 chamberings, it is not advised for a number of sensible reasons. Yes, it may shoot at elevated pressures being one, and also it will not shoot as accurately in most cases than purpose loaded Remington ammunition, or .223 homeloads.

 

The 223 may well shoot 0.2's at 100 yds, but try that at 600 and differences, especially in spreads of velocity between loads, which are less apparent at 100, soon become very apparent as range is stretched out. Your bullet is losing velocity all the time, the amount shed with time dependant upon the BC of the bullet, so that at 200, the group may not be .4 but 0.5 or 0.6, and at 300, not 0.6 but perhaps 1 inch or more attributable to variations in velocity. OK, this example would have to have a fair spread for ES and SD, but you get the point. Why shoot another cal? Terminal ballistics are what determine the calibre choice, not the want of a calibre itself. Also, legal requirements. You cannot shoot deer with a .223 (except for small species), as the law, rightly, demands a calibre delivering more energy for a humane kill. I choose .308 for my deer shooting, other people choose their own cals on their own criteria. I also target shoot with that and have found it to be a superbly accurate rifle (calibre) as it is able to take advantage of higher BC bullets than the little .223 so remains more accurate at extended ranges. There are better cals about with higher BCs for longer range work, but I happen to like the .308 for my need. A digression but one that answers your earlier question.

[gbal]

I thought it was a disused warehouse not a tunnel? Interesting none the less.

Yes,disused warehouse it was-thanks for the correction.

A professional lapse- (toxocated).Bad form.

I remembered they were concerned about very minor heating air rising,so not a tunnel.

.025 group(s) achieved.

Must do better on referencing too-thanks for that too. :-)

 

g

[toxo]

gbal:

In the interests of keeping up with the thread I'll happily look up stuff that I don't understand but I didn't sign up to these "games" and I can't honestly ever see a time when I will although Never say never right?

 

Lets get some perspective.

 

I'm just a poor rabbit shooter who got back into shooting about three years ago from teenage years. I bought a 12lb PCP (that's an air rifle for you high flyers ) from a cousin and I set out to get out into the country and shoot some rabbits. It served my hunter gatherer instincts, justified the money I was spending and it fed my dogs.

 

The chronology works like this;

 

Bear in mind that the best time is dark time.

 

12lb rifle - white light torch - getting within 30yds or so isn't easy and pretty soon they won't come out to play if they see a white light or they stay well out of range. Then you switch to red/blue/green in an effort to get em back into range but eventually it gets harder and harder.

 

You switch to a .22lr so you can reach em at the greater range going through the different light scenarios with the same results albeit farther away.

 

You bite the bullet and fork out for some sort of night vision which is very much a game changer. You go through a similar process with the infra red illuminator. They can't see 940nm but it won't reach far enough. You more or less have to use 850nm which will get there but it gives off a red glow that the bumnnies can see at .22lr ranges and they will and do run away.

 

What can I do now??? I know, lets put in for an hmr for more distance. "Don't go there" some say. ammo is non existent most of the time and when you can get it you have to worry about splits necks,squibs double loading etc etc. But is next in line in the cheapo stakes.

 

Maybe something else as well as the hmr for when you can't get ammo. Maybe something you can reload to get the cost down. Mmmm! .17/.22 hornet maybe? Ammo availabilty still a problem. And not that cheap to reload. Not so much when you can back order 10,000 at a time maybe.

 

.222/.223 maybe? Mmmm looking at specs and cost there's hardly anything in it so maybe .223 for more versatility? Lets ask the guys on the forum.

[Laurie]

223 is a simple little cartridge to handload for. If being bought for bunny bashing alone, a rifle with a SAAMI standard 1 turn in 12" rifling pitch barrel works fine with lightweight bullets in the 40-55gn class.

 

Never having handloaded before, get a good manual and also one or two 'how to' books. The beginner's standard for years was and is The ABCs of Reloading, now on its 9th edition and available on Amazon UK.com. Looking for it there, the site also recommended a cheaper book I've not come across before that might suit you too (or instead of ..)

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/cka/Beginners-Guide-Reloading-Ammunition-Saving-Apartment-Dwellers/148207379X/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=GZ941J4Y4C1E9X4856QF

 

Once you read what you do, decide what reloading kit you want and go out and buy it.

 

Depending on your ammunition consumption, you can load this tiny cartridge with some budget and easily stored kit. Instead of a heavy bench mounted press, the Lee Hand Press is easily powerful enough for the 223 and is particularly suited to the (neck-only sizing) Lee Collet Die set. (Get the Deluxe die set with full-length sizer as you'll use it occasionally alongside the Collet die and bullet seater.)

 

To start out, get the (2-item) Lee case trimmer cutter + lock stud tool and a 223 Rem (case specific) case length gauge/shellholder. This saves you buying a universal bench mounted case trimmer which is bulkier and relatively expensive and you can upgrade to one at a later date if desired. You need a few more simple tools too for case conditioning - a case-mouth chamfer tool, primer pocket cleaner, and if full-length sizing, high-pressure sizing lube.

 

You will need a priming tool. There are lots on the market including a choice of smaller hand-held models. Again, Lee offers the cheapest in the form of the 'Auto-Prime' tool. Not everybody likes the latest model, but it's worked OK for me. If you buy the Lee tool, you need a dedicated auto-prime shellholder (ie case-holder), number 4 for the 223 case.

 

On top of these items, you need powder scales (I'd strongly recommend beam type, not cheap electronic and not the Lee Safety Scale which isn't a great model), a powder funnel, and there are various bits to do with powder measuring and trickling that can be dispensed with if money is really tight - ie use the powder scoop that comes with the Lee die set to get most of the charge into the scale pan and 'trickle' additional powder kernels in to get up to weight using an angled teaspoon and tapping the handle. But simple mechanical tricklers are cheap and quicker / easier in use. Scales are an item I'd not stint over. A good set of RCBS, Lyman, Redding beam scales isn't cheap but if cared for will outlive you, and there is always a demand for secondhand ones in good nick if you decide that handloading isn't for you.

 

That's the most basic set of hardware. After that, it's components - brass, primers, bullets, and powder. Plus a reloading manual or two, or at the least, the powder or bullet manufacturer's online loads data sheets. It's usually a good idea to get the manual from the bullet maker whose bullets you've decided to use - eg Hornady if you've decided to use a V-Max, Berger for its Varmint grade bullets and so on.

 

The powder grade you need will depend on the bullet weight(s) you choose. For 223, you have a large choice between makes (Ramshot, Hodgdon, IMR, Reload Swiss, Vihtavuori, Lovex) and generally they have a couple, sometime three, grades that suit this cartridge. For a beginner, a member of the Vihtavuori N100 'family' is a good choice - it's good value, untemperamental, and widely available. Viht data is available free online, but there is an excellent (purchased) manual from it.

 

http://www.vihtavuori.com/en/reloading-data/rifle-reloading/-223-remington.html

 

If you've chosen the 53gn Hornady V-Max as a suitable rabbit terminator, this model isn't listed, but you can use the 'starting loads' which are for the 52gn Sierra HPBT and 55gn Soft-Point and work up in small (0.3gn) steps from there up to the suggested maximum values. You can see that Viht N130, N133, and N135 work with a 52/53gn bullet weight, N130 being the fastest burning has a little too much of this characteristic and produces peak pressure at lower MVs than the others. N135 has 'F' against its maxima showing a full case (ie potentially compressed load). In my 223 days with light bullets, I got best results with N133, but others prefer the slower burning N135. (Suck it and see time!)

 

For 223 and primers, use a thicker cup type, ie 'magnum' or BR. Some standard small rifle primers (CCI-400 and Rem 6 1/2 especially) have overly weak cups for all but light, low-pressure 223 loadings.

 

Brass - I'd always suggest the best you can afford. Unless it's from ammunition fired in your own rifle, buy new and don't use other people's cast-offs. With modest loadings, Lapua lasts forever and is worth the extra money.

[toxo]

Thanks for taking the time Laurie.

 

Some more good stuff there.

[Laurie]

Oh and another thing for the shopping list - a loading tray from MTM or similar. (To hold cases between operations, especially charged cases waiting to have bullets seated.) Not expensive, but it all adds up.

 

If going for a bench press, look at a complete kit - almost everything you need bar dies. It's usually cheaper than the sum of the items bought separately. Although Lee does all-inclusive kits, not for the Hand Press these days so far as I can see.

[toxo]

Yes, almost certainly will be looking for a complete outfit and adding/taking away Laurie. It's good to listen to the reviews on the different gear so the decision making is easier.

 

I Know I go on about making my shooting cheap but when it comes to the tools for the job I'll never go cheap unless it's recommended.

 

My .22lr is an Anschutz 1417 with a Gen 3 Starlight Archer sitting on the back of it which you can't buy for less than £1700. I don't like the idea of spending that much money on my shooting but for night time bunny bashing you won't find a better rig. Having said that it's shooting Win subs at the moment because I want to shoot a lot of em.

 

I've realised that I have to pick through a lot of info that's been offered (and gratefully received) for one major reason. Most of you guys on here go shooting whilst I go hunting.

 

I do appreciate what it takes to get em all in one hole at 600yds but hunting brings different challenges. In the dark for a start. target at a different distance EVERY time. Shooting off sticks - too old to be laying in the mud with a bipod. Worrying about a safe backstop, Does that eyeshine belong to next doors cat?

 

The target however is larger. A bunnies brain is about 1 1/2 inches in diameter and anywhere near that with a .223 is instant lights out. That's if you're head shooting. If you're not worried about the meat, the engine room is obviously a bigger target.

 

So can I have some advice please on the cheapest rather than the best way to get some .223 down range.

 

I was talking to an RFD friend who said he brings sack fulls of cases back from the range. I've heard some saying "that's the way to do it" and I've heard some say "Oooohhh nooo! Don't do that" What's the informed position on this? I appreciate some will be knackered and I daresay in time I'll know what "knackered" looks like.

 

I hasten to add that there will be some Lapua in the box as well for those times when I might just want to see if I can get em in the same hole

[snakeman]

 

The target however is larger. A bunnies brain is about 1 1/2 inches in diameter and anywhere near that with a .223 is instant lights out. That's if you're head shooting. If you're not worried about the meat, the engine room is obviously a bigger target.

 

 

I was talking to an RFD friend who said he brings sack fulls of cases back from the range. I've heard some saying "that's the way to do it" and I've heard some say "Oooohhh nooo! Don't do that" What's the informed position on this? I appreciate some will be knackered and I daresay in time I'll know what "knackered" looks like.

 

 

toxo

 

If you're feeding just your dogs, or a ferret then using the .223 for bunnies will do a fine job. However, if you're putting the bunnies on a plate the .223, even with head shots, can cause enough meat damage to the point of it having badly bruised torso and legs. A .223 in my view is way too much power if the kill is for the plate (for the 'food' to be enjoyed)

 

And no, you are not going to know "what knackered looks like" even "in time"...or ever for that matter! I do not mean ever to sound condescending toxo but I respectfully suggest you re-read the post in this thread where it mentions about cases/case-life and the relaoding of those cases then, continue with your research on what caliber would be appropriate for your needs..... Fox, yes...Rabbit, on a plate? no

 

ATB

[toxo]

Well that could be a game changer!

 

I hate the thought of anything I shoot being wasted.

 

I'm intrigued by the "What makes a case unuseable" question but leaving that aside, you tell me.

 

What's the cheapest cartridge to load for bunnies?

 

Bear in mind I'll be putting in for an HMR as well which I think is good for the job but with the attending "issues" I'd like something to make me less dependant on RFD stocks.

[VarmLR]

Reloading is all about consistency and safety. The reason you would be advised against bringing sackfuls of spent cartridge cases back from the range include:

 

1) you have no idea how many times that they have been fired nor can be sure of the brass condition;

2) different manufacturers use different brass alloys and different thickness of casing

3) .....2 above means case volume will vary

 

At best, you will end up with inconsistent ammo so forget consistently being near a bunnies head, never mind anything more accurate. At worst, you'll increase risks to yourself.

 

Buy new PPU brass. It wont break the bank, and as Laurie says, using a Lee Collet die means that you won't overwork the brass, and will probably only need to full length size every 5 firings or so. Viewed this way, you should get up to 20 or 30 re-loads if not too hot, and your £30-odd per 100 cases suddenly looks very cheap at a penny per shot. How cheap do you need it?

 

Use PPU sp bullets or Sierra gamekings or v-max....all will be around 20 to 25p per shot. Propellant about 11 to 12p per shot, primers about 4p. Total cost per shot based on say 20 reloads from brass = 40p/round. If that isn't cheap enough, you really need to start questioning whether CF is really what you need. That's about as cheap (and consistent and safe) as you can get for any CF calibre.

 

 

The bottom line is that inconsistent ammo and really cheap (say) PPU wont group at 200 yds anywhere near accurately enough in many rifles to make it viable. You need to be aiming worst case for moa, or an inch at 100 yards as an average group...and that's nothing to boast about these days. I doubt that most really cheap loads will do that....why? because it's cheap for a reason. Quality control isn't up to more precise ammo, bullets will vary in consistency, and possibly seating depth if some I've had are anything to go by, and you'll not get 'em as cheaply as 40p/round however hard you look anyway.

 

Laurie's advice is the best. If anyone knows what he's about here, Laurie's one of the most reliable and experienced sources of information, and his reloading gear suggestions are excellent, and inexpensive. I'd run with his advice, honestly.

 

For the plate, you can (just about) get away with 223 or (better still) 222, loaded heavier and slower. it's velocity that does the damage. You could safely use a 60 to 70 grain bullet and load it slow (relative term!) and head shoot bunnies. I've seen it done successfully without too much wastage. Head shot and non-frangible rounds (ie soft points as opposed to ballistic tips).

 

For case condition, you have to somehow be able to determine if there is any thinning of the case head web with the main chamber of the casing. ie the part of the case just above the head which holds the primer. You also need to measure overall case dimensions to determine if they're within SAAMI spec as that tells you if they'll safely chamber amongst other things. There are other indicators to look for but really you ought to read up a little on it so that it sticks and a manual will answer a load of other questions not yet asked too! You really need to read up a little on it. The ABC of reloading is still a good and inexpensive publication and I recommend it, and the Lee Reloading manual which also contains loads of load data.

[snakeman]

Double Post

[toxo]

OK guys. can I come out from under the table now? I'm just asking the questions. I can assure you nothing will be done in haste.

 

I guess all those videos where people advocate picking up brass must all be American where all the brass is once fired cos it's too cheap to reload. Plus it's all in a nice pile on the floor where someone's been shooting semi-autos.

 

.17/.22 Hornet would seem to fit my particular bill. Uses half the powder apparently and is easy on the brass but is the cost similar?