Reloading 223

[22cf]

The 223Rem is an ideal choice, I have a factory Tikka T3 stainless that will generate sub 1/2" groups all day with 22.8 grains of Viht 133.

 

I wouldn't scrimp on reloading gear though buddy, take your time, save your money and buy good gear. The whole point of reloading to me is to generate good quality ammunition for my rifle cheaper than I can buy factory ammunition. If you buy cheap reloading gear you will be making it more difficult to make good quality ammunition so you may be better off finding some factory ammunition that shoots in your rifle

 

BUY ONCE CRY ONCE !!!

[VarmLR]

Cheap scales = Avoid. Lee cheap scales = Bin

 

Cheap dies such as Lee dies are perfectly fine . Lee (cheap and cheerful) Breech-lock Challenger Press is also perfectly fine. I've posted 0.18" groups loading with Lee stuff. Their collet die is excellent as are the FL dies and factory crimp die. Nothing wrong with it to start with and it'll load ammo more accurate than most people can shoot.

 

Similarly, Lee throwers are as good as anything to four times the cost. You really do have to go to bench-rest standard throwers to better them. The RCBS competition thrower is the next step up then its probably Harrells or similar.

Scales

[Crow Juice]

Regarding dies I have used RCBS and Lee extensively and there are no quality issues with Lee that I am aware of. The Lee lock rings work but you will ultimately want to replace them. I particularly like the Lee collet die for neck sizing and I use the factory crimp die for all my loading. Every thing I load is for hunting.

 

Regarding powder measures I have a Lyman , a Lee Perfect Powder Measure , a Lee disc measure , a RCBS Uniflow , a Redding 3BR , and a Forster. They all work fine with ball powder .However , I only use the Lee Perfect Powder Measure and the Forster with stick powder like H4895 in mid range loads say up to about 60 grains .Heavier weight charges just don't throw consistently. Big sticks like H4831 and H1000 just don't throw consistently and you will need to weigh all charges. The Lee PPM feels cheap but works well .All measures require some break in.

 

Buy good scales .The Lee product is useless. I have been using RCBS since 1974 but there are numerous other quality choices.

[gbal]

Crow Juice,

 

A very savvy American president once advised "Talk quietly,but carry a big stick."

 

One way round the big stick here,is to ask for H4831 SC (Short Cut)

 

but I'm keeping my 55s and Harrels,as well as our european powders.....belt and braces :-)

 

gbal

[Crow Juice]

In the last few years some powders have been hard to find . Right now H3831SC is just about everywhere and is what I'm using in my 300Wby. I don't know if you can get Ramshot powders in the UK but Ramshot Magnum is similar in burn rate to H1000 and works well in my 300.

[toxo]

OK guys.

I'm getting a reasonable handle on what equipment to watch out for and have read a bit on powders but before I think about that I want you guys to tell me what rifle to buy!

 

I'm primarily interested in headshot rabbits. I suspect that the hmr will be the workhorse for that job along with the 22lr. But with the right equipment I'll certainly help the farmer out with the Foxes and when the bunnies are spooked to beyond easy hmr range, the 223 will come into it's own if it can be cheap enough.

First thing to consider is I can't shoot for that which promotes growth and vigour. If I had to shoot offhand to survive I'd die. Simple as that.

I tried a zeroing session yesterday. Was a bit windy but it was the first chance I had after buying a used Elite 65000 2.5-16x42 to find out if it was "right".

I tried shooting off a bag on a small table. My pulse defeated me. I resorted to my trusty quad sticks with an extra leg and normal service was resumed and I was happy that the scope was holding zero. Thing is I don't want to be carting a concrete table around with me so I have to work with what I have.

So bearing in mind that I won't be shooting long distance (but as far as I can confidently) and targetting rabbits and medium range Fox, What rifle do I buy?

What barrel length, bullet weight and twist? And of course, the cheaper the better.

[gbal]

Sounds like 200-250yards to me,if a pulse puts you off...16 x isn't a lot of mag,but may take a little getting used too (any shake is still there at any mag,of course-you are just not so aware of it....holes on paper will be.

If so,barrel length,bullet weight and twist hardly matter (the i/8 twist is neeeed for heavy bullets,but for 250y stay with 50-52 g.

That will increse you rifle choice.

 

If you intend to head shoot rabbits,you will need to be shooting one inch at 100y groups.....that's two inches at 200y,and we have not added in any other factors like wind variation/eror in reading wind etc etc. Given what you say-no figures-the heart area offers a larger zone....

'Cheaper' and 'more accurate' don't often occur in the same sentence,but mid price rifles won't be much out compared to somewhat pricier rifles. Tikka might fit the bill.....if used,try it first....

 

gbal

[snakeman]

 

What barrel length, bullet weight and twist? And of course, the cheaper the better.

 

 

I've seen a CZ 527 (varmint profile) in .223cal print bugholes with 50g up to 69g heads. That was a 1:9 twist 24" barrel....A bit of a cliche` these days is, "you won't go far wrong with a Tikka" ...and whilst that statement is true it also applies to the much underrated '527', with the cost-saving advantage of it usually being a cheaper purchase. No extra cost either on this little rifle for the set-trigger which will aid your zeroing.

 

However, if fashion is your thing, stainless steel, light weight 'prettier', etc etc, then "you won't go far wrong with a Tikka"

[toxo]

I can't help having a big heart gbal.

 

The scope will go on the hmr which I think will be a good fit. Desperately dissapointed with the capabilities with tubed NV against my Hawke Sidewinder. Very susceptible to flare from all kind of lights. May be better with digital NV.

 

Are you telling me that all that time I spent reading about this twist and that bullet weight/length have been wasted? About 250 max was about where I'm thinking but I was thinking basically - smaller bullet - less cost - less powder - less cost - less stress on cases - less cost. Not a miser. Just trying to be practical. Ultimately I'll spend whatever is necessary to hit the bunny in the head or engine room else I won't take the shot. I don't do that bad. My five dogs like bunny too much.

 

So, settling on the lighter side of bullet is the twist really of no consequence?

[toxo]

 

 

I've seen a CZ 527 (varmint profile) in .223cal print bugholes with 50g up to 69g heads. That was a 1:9 twist 24" barrel....A bit of a cliche` these days is, "you won't go far wrong with a Tikka" ...and whilst that statement is true it also applies to the much underrated '527', with the cost-saving advantage of it usually being a cheaper purchase. No extra cost either on this little rifle for the set-trigger which will aid your zeroing.

 

However, if fashion is your thing, stainless steel, light weight 'prettier', etc etc, then "you won't go far wrong with a Tikka"

 

Sounds good to me Snakeman! That's what's needed. But do you have to be lucky to get an accurate one or is that the norm cos If I didn't have bad luck I'd have no f******** luck at all.

[snakeman]

 

" But do you have to be lucky to get an accurate one or is that the norm".

 

That's somewhat like asking "if I buy a Rattlesnake and it bites me, will I die"?...Some of the time you will and, some of the time you won't. You pays your money and takes your chance but, I would have thought when buying new then all rifles would be subject to quality control and would have to meet certain standards. Then it would be up to you to find a load your rifle prefers. I'd purchase second-hand if you're doing this on a budget but I'd then suggest you have the rifle checked out by someone competent beforehand. I will say however the 1:9 twist of the CZ 527 is an excellent compromise, allowing you to shoot anything from 50g up to 69g

 

I hear quite a lot of people saying their "barrel is shot-out" but, often the truth of the matter is some people lack patience and don't take the ti​me to learn to shoot effectively and develop a round which is accurate. A .223 is an excellent choice of calibre to reload; you will have plenty enough 'barrel-life time' to test an array of powders, heads, brass, primers, etc until you get that precise load that your barrel says "yes" to....and the 527 can be as accurate as any .223 Tikka - it will be up to you and your rifle to make this happen.

[toxo]

I like that answer Snakeman.

[gbal]

Accurate Shooter advises authoritatively on twists etc etc(not costs-its USA).

Seems like for light bullets the slow twist just has an edge....though won't handle heavy bullets...It's all there.

CZ series are decent rifles,as TIkkas -used make some sense,but do check performance is adequate at least (1 moa max;.5 would be nice;smaller is unlikely-for field use,3 shots are good enough).

 

OK,costs-you'd think smaller would be cheaper-and they are...BUT VERY MARGINALLY-like 1/2 p per shot,and even that is only maybe.

 

Viht 133 £75 kilo-loaded to max book load-works out pence per shot: 40g bullet,13p;50g 12.7;55g12.3;69g 11.2

 

Bullets Vmax,each :40g 28.5p;50g 28.5p;60g 29p

 

Primers are the same cost whatever the load (cheaper may well do).

 

Brass-some trade off...maybe..Lapua costs more,lasts longer-lets see: Lapua £65/100 gives 10 loads;£40 hundred brand gives 6 loads. So cost per shot is 6.5 p for Lapua,and 6.6p per shot for other brand. Lapua probaby has a bigger advantage,and is better brass all round (both will give more normal loads,advantage remains Lapua,indeed increases)>

 

Prices may vary,but the differntials will remain.Premium bullets(Berger) will be a bit more,advantage may/not show in the field.

Don't go for bargain price components which just don't perform as well:....

 

...bear in mind that one miss with an economy loading wll cost you up to 20+ times the difference with good components,as above.

And of course,this holds for rifles too. Choose well.

 

gbal

[snakeman]

Seems like for light bullets the slow twist just has an edge....though won't handle heavy bullets...It's all there.

CZ series are decent rifles,as TIkkas -used make some sense,but do check performance is adequate at least (1 moa max;.5 would be nice;smaller is unlikely-for field use,3 shots are good enough).

 

 

 

Which is indeed the perfect reason why a 1:9 will suit both ends of the weight spectrum (at least between 50g-69g; I cannot advocate anything lighter than, or heavier than these weights because I have not shot them) ..then practice and fine-tune your reloading and shooting technique. I found it an uphill task and struggled to stabilise the heavier 69g in a 1:12. I used to have a beautiful Model 70 with a 1:12 that would inconsistently print just a 1" group at 100yds. However, that rifle with 50g & 55g pills I couldn't fault and it is still "one of those rifles I shouldn't have let go"

 

In my experience half-inch groups are easily achieved on a consistent basis, given the wind conditions are favourable with the CZ 1:9 twist and yes, all this with an an unbedded factory rifle to boot!

 

Note: I also see a 1:8 twist Tikka print a ragged hole at 100yds with 50g v-max, regularly

[snakeman]

 

 

Double post

[snakeman]

 

 

 

Double post

[gbal]

Snakeman,I don't disagree-but you miss the OP's question-what suits light bullets -and thatis the raison d'etre for the slow twists-if light means 40-50 g bullets(what else can it mean?) The OP may change choices (since cost becomes irrelevant,as shown) but the thousands of rifles Accurate Shooter summarise confirms that the slow twist does alittle better on average.Just how it is.For200/250 yards I'dactually get a 222-just has a potential slight accuracy edge-it's small but how many 223s won Bench Rest?

One offs tell us nothing (a 22cf held UK records-as a factory rifle...think 25 shots agg -ing under .2) but it was the only one from that maker to be even competitive-and a slew of PPC Sakos were close,and one better. I've also seen 'ragged groups' that were over half an inch,some nearer 3/4. Clean holes in card tell the real story.As do competiton results

If you want flexibility,1/9,and esp 1/8 are 'better' if heavier bullets will be on the menu-though light may well be shot well too.(Sako 75). The slow twists just won't stabilise the heavier bullets.I would not buy a 1/14 or 1/12 223- for that reason and with such twists the 222 has an edge anyhow at sub 250y.

But I'm not shooting much at 200-250 yards-and if I am,the 222 is better,and is used (old Sako).

My posts are geared to the OP,not some one off ragged experience-and more importantly,AccurateShooer is definitive on this.

 

Enjoyment etc and "does the job acceptably' are somewhat looser criteria;availability and cost come in too,for some.

 

gbal

[toxo]

I think you guys are deliberately trying to fry my little brain. (love it by the way)

 

My logical mind says the tighter (shorter) the twist the faster the bullet spins ergo the centrifugal force will ensure more accuracy. Obviously the tighter twist would need more force to maintain the same velocity as the slower (longer) twist. I would have thought that this held true for all bullets fired with proportionately the same force.

 

Based on a theoretical 250yd max range I can see 55g being a good choice. Apart from wind beating, what are the practical advantages of a heavier bullet AT THAT RANGE? Obviously a heavier bullet will hold more momentum but is the difference that great?

 

Please don't stop taxing me guys. I'll always carry on reading but the conflicts and confusion are many.

 

gbal, I love the tenet that says "say what you mean in as few words as possible" but spare someone who might not be used to the abbreviations or nomenclature used in this bigger boys kind of shooting.

[snakeman]

toxo

 

 

 

I'll try to keep my response short lol, and to the point!, Us riflemen are often an unsatisfied lot, and when we are satisfied (in shooting terms) we sometimes want that something a little bit better, or erhaps that little bit different than the norm - call it another challenge. In my experience after enjoying the Model 70 it became insufficient for my 'wants'. I wanted to shoot a projectile that was guaranteed stable at approx 300 yards, as well as a shorter 100 yard range load and this [for me] necessitated a heavier bullet. Heavier bullet usually means longer bullet, thus a faster spin required to stabilise. In practical terms there is absolutely no difference in accuracy at 100 and 300 yards. If your set-up is correct the projectile will hit where you aim presuming you know the 'drop' between these distances. You can do your own research on the physics of stability, bullet lengths, twists etc etc

 

I researched on the likes of Accurate Shooter et al and, whilst not taking that, or other sites as gospel, it pointed me in the right direction. If at all possible I will see the rifle I'm purchasing first-hand, talk to the seller about it and test fire. I find with most things if I see it, and see how it performs, it gives me a far more realistic knowledge of what I'm going to get rather than reading someone's opinion in a magazine or on a website. I can read fabulous bu%***8t about it but real-time testing for yourself there is no substitute.

 

RE: twists the quote as follows is from Accurate Shooter re: .223: (which you're probably already read)

 

The .223 Rem shoots a wide range of bullets very effectively, from 35gr flat-based varmint bullets, to ultra-long 90gr VLDs. However, you’ll need the right twist rate for your choice of bullet. For max velocity and accuracy with the lightest bullets, a 1:14″ twist may be ideal. More versatile is a 1:12″ twist that will allow you to shoot the popular 60-64 grain match bullets. (However, a 1:9″ twist is needed for the steel-core 62gr bullet used in the M855 military loads, because that bullet is as long as most 70-grainers.) For normal lead-core jacketed bullets, a 1:9″ twist will let you shoot up to 73gr bullets. Since most .223 Rem shooters prefer bullets in the 50-73gr range, a good “do-it-all” solution is a 9-twist, unless you’re a Highpower competitor.

 

 

In purchasing the 1:9 twist it provided me the opportunity to shoot the best of both; the lighter 50g and the heavier 69g. It gave me options and choices; choices meant more combinations of powders, bullets etc etc than I could possibly afford. If you want to dedicate yourself to the lighter end of bullets by all means a 1:12 will suit admirably, or certainly as gbal mentions, maybe the .222cal would be better suited. For versatility though in .223? the 1:9.

 

.

[toxo]

Please don't mention .222 any more! This is bad enough as it is.

 

If I can end up shooting beyond 250/300yds no-one will be happier than me so it would be silly to restrict the chances of doing that. And surely the .223 will have more stopping power than the .222?

 

So far it's looking like a 24inch barrel with a 1:9 twist then.

 

Snakeman; Doesn't have to be short, just so I can understand the abbreviations. God knows I suffer from the writing equivalent of verbal diarrhoea more than most.

 

gbal our posts crossed but I hear ya.

[snakeman]

toxo

 

 

The way I'm reading all of this is that you're going to be doing all of this on a budget? (reloading equipment, rifle etc etc)... I'm not too sure which other factories besides Savage & CZ offer a 24" barrel with the 1:9 twist but I believe new, the Savage would be a cheaper purchase

 

If you can shoot 100 yards, you can shoot 600 yards. It will all be about adequate scope, technique and ability, which is learned through practice ..(oh, and bullets, powder, primers and brass )

[toxo]

24 inches is just what I read somewhere as being good. Not set in stone. The barrel page on A/S is not available. I'll carry on looking. Think I'll have more faith in a CZ.

[snakeman]

It is a fantastic rifle for the money, particularly the varmint profile and worth every penny. Be aware however if you buy a used model. The pre-2002 model was rifled with a 1:12 twist. Post 2002 manufactured rifles are the 1:9 twist. If I remember correctly the prefix letter on the serial number for the pre-2002 is 'A' and the post-2002 model serial number begins with 'B'...Double-check this though

[gbal]

toxo,I'll assume you are changing your criteria-that's fine-223 has much more range potential than 222,as faster twists are available to exploit heavier higher BC bullets.

Here are some energy data for 200/300y ft lb as for loadings alrady given:

 

222 40g vmax @ 3600 603/424 ft lb

 

223 40g vmax @3800 677/479

 

223 50gvmax @ 3300 708/524

 

223 55gg vmax@3240 763/576

 

204 4og vmax@3900 855/674 (but see Sherlock's doubts about real velocity)

 

22/25040vmax@4150 816/585

 

243 58gvmax @3750 1090/833

 

 

Of course, the 55 has an energy advantage in 223,which is fine. All these are way above minima for rabbits ( say 20ft lb-considering half of that from an air rife at 30 yards often suffices).Fox need more,but all the above have considerable over kill energy levels.

All the above "stop" fox with authority,given correct bullet and placement.(energy is bullet mass and velocity determined,simply-terminal bullet performance is also dependent on bullet construction-though this is more a concern for deer (vmax would be unsuitable).

 

g

[gbal]

toxo SORRY DOUBLE POST...,I'll assume you are changing your criteria-that's fine-223 has much more range potential than 222,as faster twists are available to exploit heavier higher BC bullets.

Here are some energy data for 200/300y ft lb as for loadings alrady given:

 

222 40g vmax @ 3600 603/424 ft lb

 

223 40g vmax @3800 677/479

 

223 50gvmax @ 3300 708/524

 

223 55gg vmax@3240 763/576

 

204 4og vmax@3900 855/674 (but see Sherlock's doubts about real velocity)

 

22/25040vmax@4150 816/585

 

243 58gvmax @3750 1090/833

 

 

Of course, the 55 has an energy advantage in 223,which is fine. All these are way above minima for rabbits ( say 20ft lb-considering half of that from an air rife at 30 yards often suffices).Fox need more,but all the above have considerable over kill energy levels.

All the above "stop" fox with authority,given correct bullet and placement.Energy is bullet mass and velocity based,keeps it simpler-delivered efective energy is dependent on bullet construction-but more a deer concern (vmax are unsuitable).

 

g