Brexit? A quick poll

[brown dog]

Just, finally, understood Junckers:

 

Luxembourg (so, a country of a little over 15 people) profits over 1 Billion Euros per annum from the EU.

 

'Gosh'!

 

 

 

"Saying 'I support the EU, because I like Europe' is the same as saying 'I support FIFA, because I like football'. "

[weejohn]

I never really understood all the figures that were being thrown around untill i dug round and actually found "factual" figures like in the graphs.

 

Quite an eye opener.

[Cumbrian 1]

When I look at all the hype around the exit and doom and gloom stories I can't help but think that half of our population are wusses that can't stay the course.

 

As I thought the Germans would be willing to do a deal as we are the second biggest purchaser of German cars outside of Germany, Angela Merkel is already willing to drop her knickers to do a trade deal despite saying that there is no such thing as a fee lunch for the UK and as we all know in negotiations the first to compromise loses.

 

Now is not the time to appear weak, Cameron as far as I know has not addressed the EU directly and told them that we will invoke article 50 only when it suits us and we WILL NOT BE DICTATED TO BY THE EU but that message needs spelt out loud and clear.

 

Now is not the time to appear weak.

[happyhunter]

Couldn't agree more with the above,

 

The very people we vote to run our country are completely spineless.

 

Cameron should of taken the leave vote on the chin,

 

grew some balls and cracked on with making this country great again.

 

He would of gained more respect than anyother politician since Churchill.

[bradders]

[MrCetrizine]

Boris has written the following:

 

"There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.

 

"EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

 

"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

 

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

[phoenix]

Boris has written the following:

 

"There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment.

 

"EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU.

 

"British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI - the BDI - has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market."

 

"The only change - and it will not come in any great rush - is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU's extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal."

That might be what he (and most of us wants) - but he can't guarantee any of those things - he's just telling porkies - AGAIN

 

Cheers

 

Bruce

[MrCetrizine]

That's pretty much the Norway deal. It will annoy those who want controlled immigration though as free movement of labour is required for access to the common market which is the only way he can deliver what he's said.

[Artiglio]

You omly need to take away access to in work benefits for migrants , get an agreement from eu members to take back those we do not wish to have here (criminals) , levy a charge on the immigrants home country for use of the nhs and education system ( similar to the current EHIC scheme) and raise legislation requirinq Uk employers to seek workers at home first. These would deter many of those who come here from the EU ( at least those who are unskilled and unlikely to be able to afford to live here on minimum wage).

 

Most of that should be achievable as a solution, Boris will no doubt shed his dishevelled clownish persona as the weeks pass and reveal the shrewd and immensly intelligent politician that he is. It just remains to be seen if he can gather enough party support to win the leadership race. To my mind he's the best man to drive a negotiation of Brexit forward.

 

As for those surprised at the referendum result,look at the general election results, remove party loyalty and the underlying trend is,plain to see.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

[brown dog]

Rueful smile:

 

[andybrock]

When I look at all the hype around the exit and doom and gloom stories I can't help but think that half of our population are wusses that can't stay the course.

As I thought the Germans would be willing to do a deal as we are the second biggest purchaser of German cars outside of Germany, Angela Merkel is already willing to drop her knickers to do a trade deal despite saying that there is no such thing as a fee lunch for the UK and as we all know in negotiations the first to compromise loses.

Now is not the time to appear weak, Cameron as far as I know has not addressed the EU directly and told them that we will invoke article 50 only when it suits us and we WILL NOT BE DICTATED TO BY THE EU but that message needs spelt out loud and clear.

Now is not the time to appear weak.

Angela Merkel dropping her knickers...........that thoughts just ruined my toast and honey!

[Cumbrian 1]

Angela Merkel dropping her knickers...........that thoughts just ruined my toast and honey!

 

Not a pretty thought I admit But in all seriousness the Germans in one day have already under mined Junkers "out is out", not a strong position for the EU when the leading member tries to do their own deal to further their own interests where's the loyalty to the EU from Germany? It just goes to show how many/most member states only have their own interests at heart.

[bowji john]

You omly need to take away access to in work benefits for migrants , get an agreement from eu members to take back those we do not wish to have here (criminals) , levy a charge on the immigrants home country for use of the nhs and education system ( similar to the current EHIC scheme) and raise legislation requirinq Uk employers to seek workers at home first. These would deter many of those who come here from the EU ( at least those who are unskilled and unlikely to be able to afford to live here on minimum wage).

 

Most of that should be achievable as a solution, Boris will no doubt shed his dishevelled clownish persona as the weeks pass and reveal the shrewd and immensly intelligent politician that he is. It just remains to be seen if he can gather enough party support to win the leadership race. To my mind he's the best man to drive a negotiation of Brexit forward.

 

As for those surprised at the referendum result,look at the general election results, remove party loyalty and the underlying trend is,plain to see.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

 

+100 !!

[The_Dogge]

I'm getting heartily fed up of listening to and watching news reports telling us all what a disaster the referendum result has been for the country .... and practically nothing about the benefits.

What benefits would those be? The benefits of leaving are possible future states which may or may not come about, entirely theoretical. The consequences are real, happening here and now, and it's mostly all bad.

 

It's no use moaning about it now, we are where we are, which is a bad place politically and economically, hopefully the right people can start getting us out of it soon.

[Kalahari]

Exactly, we are where we are. We need to show a united front and stop running the country down.

 

David.

[gbal]

'Wake up,and smell the snake oil'-Today's special: £1 bottle for only £1.32...can't last at that price.

 

Coffee will be delayed awhiles,I'm afraid-until we get those ignored experts back on the case.

 

It's unlikely Parliament will use it's democratic right to be advised,but not co-erced by a small majority,against the wishes of the large majority of it's members,elected on their manifesto by us,the self same referenda and MP election voters. Have a thought for the democratic dilemma of those MPs,balancing two principles,and their futures-another fine mess we've got them into,though much is of their own making (austerity unfairly distributed,not enough houses etc ).We shall see,but later.

 

festina lente-I didn't get miseducated at Eton,but 'hurry slowly' has always seemed quite good advice,if you have the luxury of it,and for a while,we-UK,Scotland,the EU etc,have a much needed time for reflection,fact reorientation,a cooling off time,on both sides;and maybe even a twin Prodigals return to common sense,and a mutually better solution,fairer to all in the ship,whoever captains.

We do after all change our minds often enough on elections-which we might have soon enough.

 

Europe too knows it must change 'citizens must now correctly believe we can improve their national lives fairly'-it's not too little,but is it too late? The bathwater needed changing,but what of the baby?

 

 

 

I hope all UKV members don't have too much of a cost hike if on European holidays.I'm intending to divert to Switzerand for a family pow wow on how to run referenda and a prosperous state ......and yes,the coffee there is expensive,but it's also pretty good.Tells us something,but what...? :-)

 

gbal

 

ps as well as an imigration points system,Australia also have a rather good referendum system,which they use on the big questions to everyones benefit.

[VarmLR]

The cost of European holidays are the very last thing on my mind and I feel, a total irrelevance at this juncture. The focus has to be on rapid election of a new PM to calm the markets and to at least reassure the British people that there's some modicum of control and planning at the helm. The British people have spoken and it would make a complete mockery of our democracy if there were any U-turns now...I would never vote again if that happened and just accept that we don't live in any sort of democracy.

 

No reflection is needed except by those disappointed with the outcome. Democracy has spoken, and the whole point of voting out was because we want no part of closer unification and rule by the unelected and corrupted EU Commission who are biased towards Monet's Utopian vision of Europe under a socialist dictatorship.

 

It is grossly unfair on the rest of the EU who are wedded to closer integration to string things out for much longer. Negotiations will be ongoing for a few years but the UK is fast becoming a laughing stock, not because of the Brexit vote, but because of the total ineptitude of those we voted into power to just bloody well get on with it and stop the infighting.

 

The fact that those wanting to leave won by an slim million plus majority (being a slender but still very vocal majority) is also totally irrelevant. That's democracy. A referendum was held, the majority voted out, so out it is. Those who don't like the result should either pack their bags and migrate to mainland Europe, or pitch in and work together to help us all build a future. I, for one, am whole heatedly sick and tired of the whinging and the squabbling. Our politicians should start acting like responsible adults and put their differences aside for the sake of us all, and let go of their petty minded self serving rhetoric and nonsense.

[Kalahari]

+ 1 to this.

 

David.

[terryh]

'politicians should start acting like responsible adults and put their differences aside for the sake of us all, and let go of their petty minded self serving rhetoric and nonsense.' - perfectly good observation and expectation, but I will never see it in my lifetime.

 

There are no charismatic, intelligent politicians that I can see in the current crop, nothing in the making either (still not worked out what a 'career politician' is or what possible use they could be? )

 

Interesting times.

 

[gbal]

Varm,

My holiday point was just a gesture of conciliatory sympathy to any families of either view-or mixed-who find themselves with more expense now than perhaps they budgeted for.

 

I rather agree with your last sentence,at least. However polititians chose to interpret their parliamentary responsibilities,the views of 194 plus 26 of us on UKV forum -reasoned,polite or otherwise - won't have any significant effect,which is just as it should be.

g

[les]

What benefits would those be? The benefits of leaving are possible future states which may or may not come about, entirely theoretical. The consequences are real, happening here and now, and it's mostly all bad.

 

It's no use moaning about it now, we are where we are, which is a bad place politically and economically, hopefully the right people can start getting us out of it soon.

 

The right to self determination, for a start. To be able to make decisions for the benefit of the people of the UK without having to ask for permission from some faceless bureaucrat in Brussels who is enjoying this weeks power trip.

 

To have a judiciary that is able to make and apply British laws for British people without being over ruled by those same faceless bureaucrats whenever somebody doesn't like the result.

 

To be able to negotiate trade deals that DO NOT involve the free movement of people as a requirement. The USA is the biggest trading partner as far as the EU is concerned - try going there unannounced and see how long you last.

 

I could go on, but I can't be arsed.

[ds1]

VarmLR, excellent post +100

[VarmLR]

Varm,

My holiday point was just a gesture of conciliatory sympathy to any families of either view-or mixed-who find themselves with more expense now than perhaps they budgeted for.

 

I rather agree with your last sentence,at least. However polititians chose to interpret their parliamentary responsibilities,the views of 194 plus 26 of us on UKV forum -reasoned,polite or otherwise - won't have any significant effect,which is just as it should be.

g

 

I understand and wasn't having a pop. Of course there will be those who will lose out this year on their hols, and whilst a bit harsh, I am afraid it's the bigger picture we all need to reserve our energies for. My wife and I have lost more on our retirement stocks and shares in two evenings than probably 200 families will lose on their holidays on the weak pound for the average two week break (a luxury which we can no longer afford, since prior to the referendum), so forgive me if I'm not overly sympathetic. I see our future security disappearing fast because of these selfish nitwits in government who couldn't run a bleeding bath, never mind a country, and the civil service clearly have no contingency plan as they're like rabbits caught in headlights. Truth is, the politicians running the country and the civil service simply didn't expect the result and their arrogance and lack of touch with the true feelings of the UK are now hitting us all hard. If things carry on like this, there'll be nothing in the kitties of all us "old folk" to hand over to the Millenium babies now baying for our blood. United we all stand, divided we will surely fall.

[gbal]

Varm,I am quite similarly affected personally-but not the issue-I should have said more hardship for those who didnot vote-like kids.

I agree about the lack of engagement of politicians-some maybe in Brussels (I simply do not know how much money comes into economically deprived' areas of UK from the EU,versus the UK government.

There isn't as yet much of a plan for what we do now (tho'it's only three days...hence my 'don't rush it and make worse',yet).

 

The deciding 750,000 votes were clearly from disillusioned voters in 'the labour heartland'-such as Hartlepool-and that will tear Labour apart,perhaps for another decade.Likewise Boris and Gove have no clesr plan as yet.Increased racial crime will hopefully be minimal.

What is more of concern is that the disillusioned voters "We have nowt,how can it get worse,we need a change,Vameron out,EU out" is an undestandable protest vote against perceived neglect and economic unfair treatment,probably with some justification at least in North/South divide terms.

Serious indeed. What is not at all clear is how the likely Brexit administration will respond sympathetically -there is already a lot of slippage on the money,even if the pound etc rallues in the months ahead,and on reduced imigration. Perhaps there just was not enough attention given to B&J 's political philosophies-most impartial analysts wsee them as the carriers of Thatcherism-and she was hardly the hero of northern blue collar workers.

What happens if B&G do not delivery materially to the disenchanted protest voters- of course,Europe faces just such issues too-le Pen and extreme right wing-and the EU knows it,and it is just a bit closer now

perhaps.

It behoves us-for our own sake-to choose leadership with some care,but who will champion the underpriviledged,AND rebuild the GNP generation?

Easy and simple,it is not.

I have no personal political party commitments. I have to say I am relieved my grandchildren are Swiss citizens,living in that country.

I am reasonably confident Britain (whatever that may be by then) will recover economically,in time;we may even address the underlying issues described above,and this will again be the tolerant,decent place to live it has been (my perspective as an imigrant of sorts,never deprived.)

The pity is we have seemingly opted to do it the hard way,with a political class pursuing agendas that lack inclusiveness,that are variously out of touch with the concerns of many citizens (more than 750,000 ).

 

Though hindsight is usually too late,a more informed population might have acted differently-and maybe not. It's not new-here is Kipling on the political failures in his day:

 

"Now all my lies are proved untrue

And I must face the men I slew.

What tale shall serve me here among

Mine angry and defrauded young?"

 

Me,I'm expendable-others deserve to be better served with as good a share of life. If you haven't Kipled,try Tommy Atkins,or the magnificent "If..." .(you'll be a man,my son.....the best of British,indeed human values.

 

We must indeeed hang together,otherwise we shall certainly hang apart.

 

For starters,can we avoid the cheap slur name calling etc-we all have views,but we will only emerge from this fine mess we have got ourselves into,and realise the oportunities which will present,by some of the "Ifs" in Kipling-and name calling isn't on his list.

 

Dipping into say,Economist,"Converstaions',quality press,Huffington Post;BBC facts,etc-all free on line is a great help in seeing complexities and avoiding the over simple-as a lifetime educator,much in the North East-indulge me with that plea. There is lots of good stuff too on sport, medicine,health,and the world generally-and a variety of views,usually clearly presented.

 

gbal :-)

[264wm]

Well we are truly out of Europe now!

 

What a disgraceful lack lustre performance from so called elite professional players..

I would like the EU to keep them, but even they don't want dross.