Shooting a suppressor 'wet'

[bradders]

Just wondering if anyone has tried this, and if so what are your thoughts?

[Danpd]

[MrCetrizine]

I've seen it done. It does reduce first round noise but after that it's the same as a normal second shot.

I'd never do it on my own rifles, there was a lot of liquid thrown down the barrel.

[brown dog]

Just wondering if anyone has tried this, and if so what are your thoughts?

 

I know nothing about it; but it's always logged in my mind as a weird 'lab' trick that is a hangover from the US days when they couldn't easily get suppressors -and the whole 'suppressor thing' was a a little bit overexciting to that audience.

 

Was the Welrod wetted? - That gives the full answer to my mind

[bradders]

Double tap..

[bradders]

 

I know nothing about it; but it's always logged in my mind as a weird 'lab' trick that is a hangover from the US days when they couldn't easily get suppressors -and the whole 'suppressor thing' was a a little bit overexciting to that audience.

 

Was the Welrod wetted? - That gives the full answer to my mind

 

I believe the Welrod had a series of leather washers and was only a one shot deal.

I'm just curious to know if it does make any audible difference, might even have a crack one day........

 

ETA: I could be wrong about the leather washers

[SWShooter]

This tells you quite a bit....

 

http://www.timelapse.dk/mk.i.php

[Breacher]

I have read about "wet" suppressors but have never tried one and never met anobody who tried it.

 

As to worries about liquid entering barrel - maybe use of some sort of oil with high flash point would be in order ? ( if the issue with water is the corrosion it might induce )

[bradders]

I have read about "wet" suppressors but have never tried one and never met anobody who tried it.

 

Allow me to requote myself...

 

"Just wondering if anyone has tried this, and if so what are your thoughts?"

[Davy]

Yes and it does make a difference for the first 1-2 shots after that normality is just about restored. I only used tap water however there are purpose produced liquids and wetting agents however just not available to me.

[Shuggy]

I've shot a wet suppressor, but I'm not going to discuss the exact details - you will have to take it on faith! They are messy but effective. Wetting will work with any suppressor, but works best when it has been specially designed for it, with the baffles designed to retain the fluid. But I've only heard of designs for low pressure pistol rounds; I would reccomend that you never try this with a rifle suppressor, just in case any fluid gets into the barrel. Wet designs can be made to be quieter, or much smaller, or both. It also eliminates 'first round pop'.

 

You can use any fluid: but ones that work well are water emulsified with oil and wire pulling gel. But anything will work in a pinch, grease, shaving foam or cooking oil.

 

As for the Welrod, this was not a wet design; it used wipes (see the link above). The very early ones in 0.32 ACP used leather washers, but before long these were changed to rubber.

[brown dog]

I've shot a wet suppressor, but I'm not going to discuss the exact details - you will have to take it on faith! They are messy but effective. Wetting will work with any suppressor, but works best when it has been specially designed for it, with the baffles designed to retain the fluid. But I've only heard of designs for low pressure pistol rounds; I would reccomend that you never try this with a rifle suppressor, just in case any fluid gets into the barrel. Wet designs can be made to be quieter, or much smaller, or both. It also eliminates 'first round pop'.

 

You can use any fluid: but ones that work well are water emulsified with oil and wire pulling gel. But anything will work in a pinch, grease, shaving foam or cooking oil.

 

As for the Welrod, this was not a wet design; it used wipes (see the link above). The very early ones in 0.32 ACP used leather washers, but before long these were changed to rubber.

 

I know the clue is in the name, but what is 'first round pop'? Is it mythical or real?

I've never heard it (but would be the first to accept that I've never fired a suppressor in total silence) - I can only imagine it's 'dieseling' of oils/lubricants in one of the suppressor chambers.

Does anyone care about it other than US civvy suppressor manufacturers (ie is it 'faddy'?) - It doesn't sound remotely like a practical proposition....too fiddly and faffy (and 'evaporatey' and/or 'dust/sand magnety' if you're somewhere hot!)

 

(Well aware that the Welrod wasn't wet - hence the reason for mentioning it as an example of 'best of breed' of something designed for use in absolute life or death silence! Imagine some SOE braveheart readying him/herself to act....and the final prep being to uncork a bottle and pour some liquid into their pistol - just ain't a practical act of war. )

[Shuggy]

First round pop is thought to happen because the oxygen in the suppressor mixes with some of the unburnt propellant to give a little more efficient combustion and hence a little more noise on the first shot. Or it could be something to do with the silencer 'coking up' on the first shot. In any case, the first shot of a dry suppressed string on a pistol will usually be louder.

 

So what? Well you said it yourself in your description of the Welrod. It wouldn't matter one bit for a hunter, but for a covert type with a really impressive beard, it could literally be a matter of life or death. Therefore wet suppressors tend to be of interest to those types of user (mostly in the US). If properly desiged to retain fluid, they will actually stay wet for quite a while. I gather that these folks will carry around little plastic squeezy lab bottles, loaded with gel or oil/water mix to charge the suppressors before things get interesting.

 

Another type of user wants really tiny suppressors for concealment, which wet designs allow you to do. There's a couple of US companies that make incredibly tiny wet .22 suppressors, designed to work on the Berretta 21. They even have a screw in keyring, so that you can attempt to pass them off as a key fob!

[brown dog]

First round pop is thought to happen because the oxygen in the suppressor mixes with some of the unburnt propellant to give a little more efficient combustion and hence a little more noise on the first shot. Or it could be something to do with the silencer 'coking up' on the first shot. In any case, the first shot of a dry suppressed string on a pistol will usually be louder.

 

So what? Well you said it yourself in your description of the Welrod. It wouldn't matter one bit for a hunter, but for a covert type with a really impressive beard, it could literally be a matter of life or death. Therefore wet suppressors tend to be of interest to those types of user (mostly in the US). If properly desiged to retain fluid, they will actually stay wet for quite a while. I gather that these folks will carry around little plastic squeezy lab bottles, loaded with gel or oil/water mix to charge the suppressors before things get interesting.

 

Another type of user wants really tiny suppressors for concealment, which wet designs allow you to do. There's a couple of US companies that make incredibly tiny wet .22 suppressors, designed to work on the Berretta 21. They even have a screw in keyring, so that you can attempt to pass them off as a key fob!

 

It's a pistol-only issue? (rather than a pistol-calibre issue, I remember one of my team using a genuine deLisle in the Swiss Raid Commando comp years back; it was completely silent). And rather moot if it's going on a semi-auto (action noise) unless the bolt/action is lockable. I am struck that the rest of it sounds less 'beardy' and rather more 'dinner jacket' ...there was a brilliant Michael Haugen quote (which I've just tried, but failed, to find) that most of these 'Operator'-type developments are civilian-walter-nutty-enthusiast-manufacturer led, rather than military-user-requirement-led .......carrying around a squeezy bottle for use before an op? .... crap loads of really important other things to do beyond remembering to try to find a squeezy bottle and squirt it into a gat...... hmmm.. I am left with the strong impression that we're still talking about 'US suppressor enthusiast' stuff rather than real military stuff - except, perhaps, for the requirements of 1 or 2 Mossad-types

[Shuggy]

Yes it's mainly a pistol thing. At least I've not heard of first round pop being an issue on SMGs and rifles.

 

Yes, you are probably quite correct that most of this is driven by US gun nuts - take a look at the silencertalk forums to see it in all its glory. But the tiny number of beardy types that do need this at the office get the benefit as a result.

 

If you absolutely have to have a 'silent' pistol, as opposed to merely suppressed, then there are really only two ways to go: wipes like the Welrod, or a wet suppressor.

[brown dog]

If you absolutely have to have a 'silent' pistol, as opposed to merely suppressed, then there are really only two ways to go: wipes like the Welrod, or a wet suppressor.

 

...and then only if it goes on something with no moving metal parts, as earlier, pointless on an unlockable semi auto.

[bradders]

 

...and then only if it goes on something with no moving metal parts, as earlier, pointless on an unlockable semi auto.

 

When being stealthy and snipery, I assume you may only get the one shot, so if it makes it as quiet as possible.....

The pop as they call it is generally attributed to the can getting degassed on the 1st shot.

I have heard that a squirt of WD-40 or similar will help to eliminate that

 

 

Anyway.....something to talk about innit?

[brown dog]

Doesn't sound like a rifle thing, Mark.

[MrCetrizine]

I get it on my blackout with subsonics. The first shot is very noticeably louder than subsequent shots. Not shooting for as little as two minutes then shooting again reintroduces the first round pop.

 

You don't tend to hear it with supersonics as the sound is higher anyway but as it's the same rifle, it must still happen to a degree. The supersonic crack must level out the louder first round sound.

 

I'd imagine most dry mods suffer this but depending on the bullet velocity and performance of the mod, it will be more of less noticeable.

[bradders]

Doesn't sound like a rifle thing, Mark.

 

Think you're right, I just did a search and one link says it can lead to catastrophic failure.....and we don't want that now chaps, do we?

[Shuggy]

If you think about it, a wet suppressor makes a certain ammount of sense from a budgetary point of view (and everything government is cash constrained these days!). Weapons generally get shot a lot more in training than they do on operations. With a wet suppressor you can use exactly the same thing in training, running it dry if you want to.

 

With a wipe design, you have to pay a much higher running cost for training, changing out the wipes every 20 shots or so. If you look at the new Brugger and Thomett VP-9 'veterinary pistol' (which is basically a modern copy of the Welrod), these are sold with a wipeless training suppressor, along with the wipe version for real use. With a wet suppressor, you would only need to pay for the one thing.

 

Interesting to hear about the Blackout. The time delay that you mention suggests that it is indeed the oxygen in the tube that causes the first round pop.

[brown dog]

I can't think of any circumstance; operationally, where having to wet a suppressor in order to make it work quietly makes sense!

 

It's a 'play' not 'real' idea.

 

Just read up on the VP-9 you mentioned - blimey, it really is a welrod - and clearly for very real 'stuff' !

 

 

(the training suppressor makes far more sense than a 'pour water in your suppressor when it's real' solution! )

 

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/pistols/2015-articles/B&T-VP9-9mm-single-shot-repeater-silenced-pistol/

[brown dog]

By the by, thinking about this, the pop must be a manifestation of secondary flash.

I'd be interested to learn if all suppressor designs experience 'first round pop'; or just some of them.

I'd suspect that first round pop will be a feature of designs that don't diffuse the intitial gases quickly enough and provide a good resevoir of air in the initial spaces - I'd hazard a guess that such suppressors have a large empty first compartment and symmetrical baffle stacks. In contrast, I'd suspect that suppressors with small compartments and asymmetric internals designed to maximise turbulent flow will be less likely to 'pop'.

[Shuggy]

Knights Armament Corporation design In service with US SOCOM since 1996 and definitely designed to be shot wet. And clearly subject to 'real' use rather than 'play'!

[bradders]

I can't think of any circumstance; operationally, where a wetting a suppressor makes sense!

 

It's a 'play' not 'real' idea.

 

Just read up on the VP-9 you mentioned - blimey, it really is a welrod - and clearly for very real 'stuff' !

 

B&T-VP9-Apertura-Pag2.jpg

 

(the training suppressor makes far more sense than a 'pour water in your suppressor when it's real' solution! )

 

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/Shooting/pistols/2015-articles/B&T-VP9-9mm-single-shot-repeater-silenced-pistol/

 

Hmmm, I might become a vet