Jump to content

A basic lesson re-learned!


DaveT

Recommended Posts

There's a reason why bipods are normally fitted at the front of a rifle.

A rifle shot off s bipod is no different than a rifle shot prone with a glove and sling not touching the ground

I realise that second part is a difficult concept for many of you to understand, as with many disciplines it's about letting the rifle do as much work as is possible for you, hence the always changing fashion ala calibre of the week.

A rifle rested midships (ie on a mag) will behave differently, and I will refer back to when I mentioned recoil induced departure angle.

Just don't ever rest your pistol grip!

 

If you zero your rifle for 100 standing, 200 sitting with sling, 300 prone mag rested, 400 sitting and 500 prone.....don't expect your come-ups to be linear.

There again, you have to have the confidence to actually zero and take sighters standing, sitting and kneeling, and there is a thing here that benefits this greatly, it's the ability to actually call the shot!

 

Now, recently the GB team went to Camp Perry and won the Palma Match.

They won it and beat the Americans, because the GB boys and girls know their rifles and the 155gn bullets characteristics.

They also beat the home team in the Highpower Championships with the same kit while the Yanks were all shooting their 6,5-284's etc.

 

Know why???? Because whereas the Americans are always trying to beat the wind, the British (Bisley posse) have learned to read it then shoot with it.

They also know their kit and aren't forever changing it based on 6mmBR or accurateshooter.com whims.

 

You should all try getting out and hitting the range and learning some stuff, rather than pontificating on the Internet about this, that and the other.

As I have said before, we run fun action matches at Bisley and Daves Diggle gang do so once a month each.

You'll learn positions, wind and just about everything else

Everyone is welcome, some of you should try it.....unless you are afraid of a bit of competition and fear being shown up :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dave, why? I am never going to shoot it mag rested, why would I? But I will try it when I get chance.

 

Bradders, really? Many people shoot, myself included and I try to compete as and when time allows. I would have loved to shoot the RBL again this year but other commitments got in the way. I have no fear of competition in fact I relish it. Now be a good fellow and change the record.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The OP first post was about 'Learning From Experience' and reminiscing on not having spent enough time to get all the data he needed for shooting his rifle in a variety of positions before shooting a match and some of the observations he subsequently made. Now given that he was shooting an AR and not a bolt gun of some sort and that CSR was mentioned it does not take long before comments about 'Structural Integrity', 'Toy' not suitable for foxing, something must be 'wrong', over long badly typed fuzzy ramblings about dead Colonels, group sizes vs massive Fig 11s and other not relevant tosh gets injected.

 

OP Quotes:

 

All my previous target shooting has been prone with bipod (IE always a consistent setup) ......its too easy to forget changes induced by positional shooting.

 

 

 

The gun shoots 'cock-on' when I do things right.

 

So it appear that the OP is more than happy with his kit and the fact that he learnt something new and therefore hopefully wont be worrying that something is loose, about to fall off or is made of pastry.

 

:):ph34r::)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'So it appear that the OP is more than happy with his kit and the fact that he learnt something new and therefore hopefully wont be worrying that something is loose, about to fall off or is made of pastry. '

 

 

Which at the end of the day is what we all want. ?

 

But boy, you AR guys get prickly don't ya. Actually I think the op did the right thing, he experienced poi shift and investigated the cause.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually it's not about AR boys getting prickly, it's the fact that these AR guys actually shoot regularly and do know a thing or two about shooting.
Something you should all try, not just lying on your belly or sitting on your arse at a bench

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A good shooter that knows his guns foibles ?

 

More competent than good. And no foibles really !!

 

It was me.

 

LMT in .308 with 16" barrel. Using GGG 168gr factory ammo. No really noticeable POI shift for me ( though I was not mag resting ) from prone bipod to sitting supported to kneeling supported to standing.

 

I have shot the same sort of match with a Steyr SSG69 too. And a bull barrel .223 AR before that. I never really noticed any major POI shift there neither whether bipod / sitting / kneeling / standing.

 

I have done a couple of seasons CSR mag resting and I am not sure I am accurate enough there to tell if my misses are POI shift or me being a ladyboy®

 

If it helps put this AR vs Bolt Action to bed - I have shot the RBL matches using .223 16" AR, .308 SSG69 and LMT .308 16" - and brought home trophies every time. So, its got nothing to do with inherent accuracy / inaccuracy of one particular type over another.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, a Parish Notice:

Interesting thread, but too much editing required to keep it grown-up.

Just given it a significant prune.

(If our Marlborough correspondent's piles are playing up, please get them sorted. Disproportionate moderator actions required on your posts of recent. Very boring.)

 

 

Secondly,

My view: ARs are definitely more susceptible to inconsistent position and hold than other rifles. No idea why, but they are.

My data: When shooting my first Diemaco weapons test I nearly failed. SA80 is very forgiving of position and hold. The AR is not. I had to concentrate significantly harder on the marksmanship principles over the 2 years I carried and used the AR platform at work.

An SA80 shows no POI shift when mag or pistol grip rested. ARs shift if you look at them differently.

 

In civvy use, borrowing Tel's AR I notice far more unexpected flyers than with other rifles and I struggle to call shots with reliability. Again, I put the observation down to the design's susceptibility to inconsistent position and hold. I don't understand it, and can't explain it. But they're definitely more sensitive than other rifles.

 

Now, I know this can be turned into: 'the consistency of your position and hold is sh1te'; which would be a valid observation; but given that I'm getting old and smelly, I need to use rifles that are forgiving of that inconsistency.

 

Now....as an academic exercise, someone please mag rest an 10 round AICS bolt action and report back on POI shift. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 year later...

Ooh this has got a bit prickly hasnt it :)

Just a thought trying to put some mechanics behind it, I dont know whether the hand guard was freefloating or not, or whether the upper was made of less than sturdy metal at the barrel, nut area, excess clearance barrel to upper and so on. Therefore flexing slightly upwards when rested at the front? Everything flexes to a greater or lesser degree.

maybe the rifle builders on here with more experience on the platform could contribute whether there would be enough flex to cause 1MOA.

When I started practical shooting I bought a polymer based 22lr AR platform to get me shooting rather than saving. (Yes please stop laughing , it allowed me to get going). Found the very same issue but at only 50m. Far too much flex in the upper, no free float hand guard etc.. it all contributed to raised POI with rested or gripped hard at the front. Compared to mag rested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having read this right through i feel it rather confirms my own thoughts.

The lines of force act in straight lines, so it follows that any change to point of contact of the butt

relative to barrel height must change POI. The ideal would be for the recoil pressure to be directly inline with the barrel.

Evidence for this would be the ease many shooters find to accurately shoot the new ruger precision rifle, and the apparent ease of training recruits to shoot the sa80. For myself, i found shooting my combination 12/222 with the lower rifle barrel much more forgiving

than bolt rifles.

It would be interesting to hear from OU double rifles which barrel they shoot best

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting point - the idea of AR15 'in line recoil' has always struck me as being rather nearer optimism than realism.

attachicon.gifusamustanding1x350.jpg

http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/standing-position-shooting-technique/

The reason for that stance is to bring the sights up to the eye, rather than craning the neck down to get a cheek weld
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally 'get' the reason, but it's pretty universal, and'inline recoil' on the axis of the buffer tube goes a little awry when ergonomics demand that the axis of the tube is placed above the shoulder :) Could be one of the marksmanship challenge reasons?
post-1450-0-44159300-1477391272.jpgpost-1450-0-44511000-1477391302.jpgpost-1450-0-64803500-1477391343.jpgpost-1450-0-98086900-1477391372.jpgpost-1450-0-10240800-1477391400.jpgpost-1450-0-28676700-1477391441.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally 'get' the reason, but it's pretty universal, and'inline recoil' on the axis of the buffer tube goes a little awry when ergonomics demand that the axis of the tube is placed above the shoulder :) Could be one of the marksmanship challenge reasons?

attachicon.gifimages-5.jpgattachicon.gifimages-2.jpgattachicon.gifimages-4.jpgattachicon.gifimages-3.jpgattachicon.gifimages-7.jpgattachicon.gifimages-8.jpg

 

I think it's more the shooter being forced to adopt that position nowadays due to body armor/LBE helmet etc

From my limited experience shooting the matches in the US and having to wear all that stuff, there's nothing worse than shooting in a helmet that restricts your vision when you crane your neck down on the sights

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I think it's more the shooter being forced to adopt that position nowadays due to body armor/LBE helmet etc

From my limited experience shooting the matches in the US and having to wear all that stuff, there's nothing worse than shooting in a helmet that restricts your vision when you crane your neck down on the sights

Totally agree.

 

When I was on the Maritime security we got older generation ( thicker and heavier ) body armour. And a sort of NATO helmet. Practically impossible to shoulder a SLR or G3 properly. A bit easier with the shorter lower comb stocked AK but still far from ideal.

 

Made shooting hard work !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy