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6.5 creedmore experiences


ashcroft

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I,ve built quite a few Darren. My next 6.5 will be one. I keep brass and dies in stock for this calibre and have done for quite some time. I think its the best of the 3 popular 6.5,s personally.

 

Have a look at a dummy cartridge , next time you call in.

 

It costs no different to any other mid sized case. Brass is under a quid a case. It reloads easily and appears to be be very un fussy regarding what you use in it.

 

Mick Coy has one i built him for a stalking rifle. Have a word with him next weekend.

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It's an excellent little cartridge and can hold its own alongside the 6.5X47L and .260 Rem. Like Dave, I now prefer the Creedmoor to the other two. Until now, brass availability has been the biggest issue, but that's steadily improved from Hornady and Norma and Winchester are both allegedly making brass in the first instance and factory ammo in the latter, but I've yet to see or hear of either so far.

 

In the long run, I'm pretty sure .260 Rem will hang on as it's so well established, but the 6.5X47L will remain a marginalised handloaders' and European match number with very few factory rifles chambered for it and only Lapua offering brass and ammunition. The Creedmoor has been designed for the US market and it's a runaway success there. Success feeds on success - Savage has adopted it as one of only three chamberings in its Model LRP (Long Range Precision) rifle, but more important still is Ruger choosing it for one of its three chamberings in its new Precision Rifle. Watch everybody else run to catch up now. With the American market dwarfing everybody else's anything that is a big winner in it, automatically becomes a world player.

 

When you say 'SA', do you mean for magazine feed in which case, it's a choice of the Rem, Lapua and Creedmoor basically. If you're thinking of an SA action employed only in F-Class or similar single-shot range-only shooting, that brings the 6.5X55mm and 6.5-284 into play and they will outperform the smaller cased trio at long ranges, albeit at the expense of significantly shorter barrel life.

 

As Mark (1967 Spud) says, none of the smaller 6.5s can be competitive against sevens at 1,000 yards, but again it's down to rifle type and shooting discipline. In a short-action mag fed rifle only the 7mm-08 is viable or 7mm-08AI, but when limited to 2.800-2.900" COALs for magazine feed, the three 6.5s will outperfom it ballistically as the 7-08 cannot make use of 162gn and heavier bullets seated optimally. If built as a single-shot rifle that will accept 2.950-3.00" COALs, the small seven can just about match the 6.5s loaded with the better 140s with a bit of a struggle. If we're talking out and out L-R prone comp rifles then .284 Win / 7mm Shehane, even more so the 7mm short magnums, they're in a different league.

 

BR is different yet again and the smaller calibres can often make everything else look sick! (Damn the Lenton family and their 6BR! - I don't really mean it , Bruce.)

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Let's remind ourselves of the basic parameters for longer range calibres-these are really driven by the laws of aerodynamics,then have addded somewhat arbitrary human constaints (rifle weight,recoil tolerance).But it helps focus on where to look....including 'what Creedmore" (more later,specifically.)

 

These criteria are to match the benchmark 6.5x284 for wind deflection (the major issue):

 

calibre weight g BC Velocity Mv fps Recoil ft lb Rifle weight lb for equal recoil

 

5.56 90 .502 3270 6.67 10.3

 

6mm 115 .585 3065 7.63 13.5

 

6.5mm 142 .565 2950 9.07 16

 

7mm 175 .596 2800 10.7 18.5

 

308 220 .627 2650 13.15 23.2

 

These are effectively aggregates,so some compensation is OK-velocity/bullet BC& weight/trade offs-but there are limits,and it has to "add up".

The arbitrary limits are the weight limits imposed in various competitions( eg Fclass open) and likewise callibre/cartridge restrictions (as in FTR).

 

The hot sevens and 6.5 Nosler (coming) currently have raised the bar,but the 6,5x284 is still a useful benchmark-if you can't get very close to it,perhaps look elsewhere.

 

The huma factor -recoil- is also a 'strategic' issue. The problem with such Long Range shooting is wind-but not really wind strength,as is often assumed-the real bu**er factor is variable wind,both shot to shot,and it's changes down range-esssentially unmeasureable as yet.

 

The traditional remedy was a juggernaut heavy bullet from a large capacity case with the 'momentum' to resist more wind deflection (or is it properly drag pull?),and minimise such wind error allowances.

The more recent strategy is to shoot fast in a hoped for minimal change wind condition,which has had success,especially in benign conditions (the 6BR-see thread on this,and it's realisation in the Lenton rifle).

OK,this brings weight/recoil/rules and slick handling right back into focus.

 

But the laws of physics still hold ( for rifle/ammo/wind and shooter).

 

It is clear though from the table that the 5.56/224 cal is an unlikely choice,and the 308 will really be a handful at current weight limits. S it's likely the mid ground will be fertile,and indeed iit is.....

 

OK,against this-but never ignoring it in the real world, the issue for long range shooters is to hit a distant target that may not even be visible to the unaided eye. The small errors that can be 'neglected'-even if noticed-at short range then become more serious,but variably-and the question becomes: which are actually the ones to focus on-for a particular shooter skill/gear combo-and the answer varies.

Applied Ballistics WEZ (Weapon Employment Zone) Analysis shows wha really affects target hits and how much,relatively. Monte Carlo simulation statistically models scenarios with varous levels of uncertainty in the input factors (eg MV has to be like 3000fps,+/- 10 fps SD). The MC simulation plots say one thousand shots for each factor,and then aggregates all such factors to give a hit probability,for a specified target size/distance.

The model assumed very good specified performance,but not perfect performance in the other factors for each run (factor)...and excellent rifle handling (no wobble!)....occasionally a very very good shooter on a good day will do a bit better (of course,over 1000 shots,even such a shooter won't maintain 100%-but it puts performances like Des Parr's 15 into 4" at 800y into the special category-see other post here-Euro F class champs).

But the comparisons hold,given the large data base in the models(and remember the high proficiency that is assumed-we want to know what one factor's improvement means,not a jumble of them all).

 

OK -here is the hit % improvement for two targets,and several factors improved as shown:

 

factor improved/how much 10" circle at 700y 20" circle at 1000y

 

Grouping moa from .8 to .1 6 % more hits & 3 %more hits (% hit Improvement for moa)

 

MV SD 15 to 5 fps 2.5 & 4

 

Hot load +75fps 2.5 & 4

 

308w to 6.5 creedmoor 24 & 28

 

ranging +/- 15y to +/- 1y 19 & 14

 

Wind error +/-4 to +/- 2 mph 31 & 32

 

 

OK- get the right cartridge,and a rangefinder.Learn about the wind. Reloading precision as a side line.

(assuming reasonable base line competence already in all this,and note the quite good variables before improvement!)

 

OK,let's look at the Creedmoor before Bradders buys yet another bipod.... :-)

 

 

6.5 Creedmoor,factory ammo 6 Creedmoor, home loads

Hornady 140 A max @ 2800 105 Berger hybrid@3100

15fps,+/-2 mph wind error 5fps;+/-2 mph wind error

+/- 1 yard ranging,.4moa +/- 1 yard, .25 moa

 

 

8" circle at 1000y hits 22 % for 6.5 41% for 6

 

 

F class target %

at 1000y X 5" 9 % shots & 23% shots

10 10" 22 & 28

 

9 20" 43 & 33

8 30" 10 & 12

7 44" 6 & 3

 

 

And,since it's a quiet sunday am: compare 10fps,.25 moa cartridges: % hits on 10" at 700 and 20" at 1000y

 

308 175 SMK @2760 56 % hits on 10" at 700 y & 46 % hits on 20" at 1000y

6.5 Creedmoor 140 Hybrid@ 2850 80 & 75

6 Creedmoor 105 hybrid @ 3100 79 & 74

260 Nosler 140 hybrid @3300 89 & 85

 

To a very close approximation the 6.5 Creedmoor ,6.5x47Lapua and 60Rem are equals

6 creedmoor,6x47 Lapua and 243 win ditto

 

The 168 Nosler with 168 Accubond @ 3000,BC .652 seems close to the & Rem mag and 7WSM

(and none of these three hotties is much bettered by the 338 Lapua at 800 or 1000y).

 

 

You shold deal with the factors that are actually causing dispersions,and preferably in order of magnitude;but who puts "wind reduction"' on the top of the Xmas wish list? :-)

 

gbal

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Jeez that was an amazing reply George.so the 6mm's still have the edge out to 1000yds or I digested the info wrong.the 7mm boomers take over from there.my 1000yd shooting is prone so I need the best prone shooter cal that I can use as a stalker too.i think I should let you choose my next calibre George.

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Jeez that was an amazing reply George.so the 6mm's still have the edge out to 1000yds or I digested the info wrong.the 7mm boomers take over from there.my 1000yd shooting is prone so I need the best prone shooter cal that I can use as a stalker too.i think I should let you choose my next calibre George.

Neil,no shooting today!

 

For stalking,terminal effect comes in-though the better 6.5s and up have well enough for most deer,and 6mm for all except perhaps the largest.We'd also then be talking/stalking about MUCH shorter ranges-350 is getting pretty long by many stalker's standards.

 

I didn't include data on the 'hot sevens'-more that they are a considerable improvement on the figures given...and the 'big boomers'-30 magnums like 30-338,and that super class of clout are getting too much for most UK shooting,and certainly stalkingat UK accepted distances.NOt many can shoot them very well either.

Which calbre,and then cartridge, for LR target shooting is flexible,but within the parameters given-and shooter factors.On a benign day,a good shooter with a 6BR may well be right up with a 'big boomer',somewhat less likely on a real "hoolie" day,with strong gusting winds. And right in the middle of the mix are the good 6.5s (like 6.5x284),the 284s ( 284,Shehane wildcatted version etc),and the WSM class....

Remember too,these as target rifles are a whole lot heavier than anything youd sanely want to carry on the hill'-while that image lingers,there is more than one strategy for stags in rut-clearly the alpha male goes for magnum force,but a lesser buck can be more sneaky,having less clout,and slip in-as it were-while Alpha is distracted;but the lesser males chances depend on very favourable conditions,the Alpa male is more certain of progeny,whatever the...err weather. Size matters,but not to the exclusion of all else,so we should not get into a rut about all this. :-)

g

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I will sooner or later i will dedicate one rifle to just a lr target rifle, as you already know I like my rifles dual purpose, funny enough one of the best scores ever had in our club was a 6mm br built by norman clarke, I think 15 out of the 20 shots were inside a 1 foot diameter circle at 1000yds and the majority were inside the next smaller circle being 9 inches.i am probaly already sold on one though the 6.5 creedmoor keeps coming back to haunt me.have a slightly larger cal for stalking/foxing etc

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Anyone in the UK using a 6mm creedmoor

 

 

Unlikely I'd have thought not for one simple reason - brass. We regard Norma brass as very expensive, US shooters see it as VERY expensive. We (Brits and Americans both) can get excellent and strong Norma 6XC cases, but the Americans can also get Hornady or other 6.5mm Creedmoor cases cheaper and more easily than we can it being a domestic product for them.

 

There's not a huge difference in the internal ballistics between 6XC and 6mm Creeedmoor, what there is is in the latter's favour as it has 7 or 8% more case capacity. That equates to a ~2% MV increase if the extra space is used to increase performance, 50 or 60 fps. In fact, the 6mm Creedmoor will give the same performance as .243 Win give or take not enough to matter a damn.

 

That makes the 6mm Creedmoor a modernised 243 effectively, a shorter case with 30-degree shoulders and the bullet intruding less below the neck at the standard sort of COALs that fit an AI or similar magazine. The main use in the USA so far as you are able to judge it from forums and blogs is the pretty specialist tactical / sniper type comps as seen in the Precision Rifle Series events and these guys are looking for every last little bit of competitive edge. For most people, the .243 Win with an 8-inch twist barrel on the rifle would meet their needs just as well, or if they want an improved 243 Win (but not 'Improved' as in the Ackley meaning of the term), go to the 6mm Super LR, a simple resizing of the 243 case to give it the XC's longer neck and sharper shoulders.

 

http://www.6mmar.com/Super_LR.html

 

 

Another thing to think about in this small to mid size cartridge debate is Berger's new 130gn 6.5mm AR-Hybrid bullet which could well be a game-changer for the 6.5X47L / 6.5 Creedmoor / 260 Rem in short-action rifle / magazine use. As the name suggests, it was developed with the American 'big AR' users in mind, to give an extremely high BC bullet that suits 2.8" COAL in these cartridges without the bullet base being far too deep in the case. It should suit our 6.5X47Ls here very well too as many are throated a bit on the short side to suit 120-130gn length bullets. This bullet will make the Creedmoor and X47L very competent 1,000 yard cartridges even when restricted to magazine lengths.

 

http://www.bergerbullets.com/new-65-130gr-ar-hybrid-otm-tactical/

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hi got me thinking about the 6.5 creedmore would my cooper model 22 bolt take a 6.5 creedmoor cartridge if I was to get it rebarelled it is 22.250 chambered or simply is the 6.5 creedmoor the same boltface as a 308. 243. and what twist rate should I be looking for. for deer, cheers dave.

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All three designs (Creedmoor, Lapua and 260 Rem) have the standard 0.473" dia. case-head and extractor groove / lower body dimensions, same as 22-250, 243, 7-08, 308, 30-06 etc so any such existing rifle can be rebarrelled to them, the issues then being other dimensions principally magazine length. Not knowing the Cooper, can't comment on that but your bolt would be OK.

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I have had a 6.5 creedmoor for 3-4 years one of the first to be built here in the uk as others have said very easy to load and unforgiven, used a .260 but prefer the creedmoor used mainly for stalking so cannot comment long range targets... but the guys in the states use them for that with very good results. have a look here http://www.65creedmoor.com there is not alot they don't know about them one or two members were involved in the development of it. also 6mm creedmoor user and think they are working on the 7mm's.

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