Laurie Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 See: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wZRP7ns-T6iut7a986y76hBuX5TM-QyUZ1A-yTI7Obo/htmlview?sle=true# With the final match (ex 6) at 1,000 yards now underway, the GB team are walking away with the four yearly Palma steadily increasing their lead over the USA and South Africa. Fantastic results so far by Jane Messer's lads .... fingers crossed for the final match, although with a 38 point aggregate lead, they'd have to really collapse to lose now! Not much mention (ie none AFAIK) in the British media for fantastic British results in one of the northern hemisphere's most prestigious sporting competitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunc Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 See: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wZRP7ns-T6iut7a986y76hBuX5TM-QyUZ1A-yTI7Obo/htmlview?sle=true# With the final match (ex 6) at 1,000 yards now underway, the GB team are walking away with the four yearly Palma steadily increasing their lead over the USA and South Africa. Fantastic results so far by Jane Messer's lads .... fingers crossed for the final match, although with a 38 point aggregate lead, they'd have to really collapse to lose now! Not much mention (ie none AFAIK) in the British media for fantastic British results in one of the northern hemisphere's most prestigious sporting competitions. Brilliant. Fingers crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brown dog Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Reads like an update from Johnners! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Go GB. We're also doing pretty well in the Canadian Nationals after day one, with two F open shooters in the top five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Go GB. We're also doing pretty well in the Canadian Nationals after day one, with two F open shooters in the top five. Where are the scores posted for this Ian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DW58 Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Been watching this with interest - this is where FaceySpaceyBook comes ino its own for things like this which the media ignore. Go GB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Where are the scores posted for this Ian? http://www.dcra.ca/results/2015/CFRC/m182.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 GB has done it! With two West Indies competitors still to finish, it's our guys (and lady as Jane Messer is the team captain) by a country mile from the USA and South Africa. 7,106 aggregate score over the USA's 7,035. Fantastic V-count too at 827 (out of 1,440 total shots taken by each team), next best on Vs is 4th place Australia with 774. I bet a load of individual records have been taken too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Ian, Mark, this is a better link to the Canadian F-Class Nationals as it puts competitors into overall position. Today's results aren't up yet, but this shows the overall positions at yesterday's close: http://www.dcra.ca/results/2015/CFRC/a826.htm Tony Marsh obviously had a good day lying in 2nd place on V-count, in fact all the Open guys did really well except for Des Parr (Desperado on UKV) who looks like he's had problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Thank you Laurie, that's the link I thought I put up, doh me. Well done the GB Palma team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Superb results. What cartridge did they decide to go with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Superb results. What cartridge did they decide to go with? I think this is correct Tony M used a .284 David K used a Shehane Gary C used a 300 WSM Mik used a 7/270 WSM Dave L used a Shehane?? Des P was throwing rocks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I suspect Des has paid the price for competing in the GB league round at Diggle last weekend and flying out to Canada on Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elwood Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 I suspect Des has paid the price for competing in the GB league round at Diggle last weekend and flying out to Canada on Tuesday. Certainly something wasn't right Laurie, he's almost invincible in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 All the Palma shooters used 155gn .308, either ordered for delivery in the US or loaded themselves Well done to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Thanks Laurie / Ian I wondered what the consensus of opinion was as to which cartridge was viable for the Worlds in 2017 Im going to try and build something to return to competition - though it will be one rifle this time - 284 or Shehane was my thoughts to stay under the Canadian range limits (assuming I can make the team) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 Superb results. Indeed, that's 4 Palma trophy competitions in a row Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeman Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 It's even better than that Mark, won six of the last seven events and came second to the Saffers in 99 on their home ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted August 16, 2015 Report Share Posted August 16, 2015 It's even better than that Mark, won six of the last seven events and came second to the Saffers in 99 on their home ground. Thanks, and all off the elbows too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbal Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Thanks, and all off the elbows too As were all competitors,Mark? I don't mean UK has just the best elbows,but there is probably some other factor that gives the winners an edge....? Good shooting though,given all were equally advantaged in a bipodless world. gbal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 The Americans have been in this situation (ie not winning) before, and by heavens it rankles with them - and then some! They say to themselves that they have the world's best shooters as individuals, so how come they don't win? (They would say that of course, but given the nature of rifle competition in the US, its much more mainstream place in their culture, the size of their armed forces and numbers of ex forces personnel, and the shooting population size of they have to draw on, it may not be untrue.) They've previously put GB's record down to team selection, management and the build-up of expertise within the team, and there is undoubtedly a lot in that - although the number of individual titles and medals won by GB and Australia this year at home competitors' expense shows that they weren't nearly strong enough at the basic level either. Still, anybody who has been involved in a TR or (in this matter near identical) F-Class team knows that given the right kit and ammo, and expert enough shooters, it's the combined quality of the wind coaching and the team management that determines whether you win team matches or not. Our team led by Jane Messer must have been really sharp in these respects. To be fair to the Americans (and also likely Canadians and Australians), their logistical issues in building teams is much greater than ours. A scottish based competitor might moan about the need for regular trips to Bisley for team selection and training weekends, but it's peanuts miles travel compared to travelling the length and breadth of these three land masses. In fact, this is such an acute problem for the Americans they have two Palma teams, an East and a West that come together for the international events. None of that changes the basic facts though - GB came out on top and by such a margin with so many previous records smashed, our guys and lady were simply in a different league from the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradders Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Actually I think the main reason is that the GB shooters regularly shoot 800, 900 & 1000. It's really all they do. Furthermore they do it with basically the same cartridge, a 155gn .308. The Americans, much like the majority of people on here, are always waiting for the next latest and greatest cartridge to come along ad save them US High Power competition allows them to use any cartridge they choose, and when forced to shoot something that conforms to the match regulations, they get shown up. The GB shooters have a wealth of knowledge built up around that cartridge, that's what helps them win. Well that and regular not dissimilar competition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AckImp Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Well done to them all. We had the benefit of coaching from the GB Palma guys before a trip to Canada in 2004. We got thrown off Century because it was too windy and the frames were breaking. Don't ask me why but they let us go up to Stickledown (stronger frames/targets?) and shoot 1000 instead and we couldn't believe the quality of the wind coaching we got. As Mark says, the knowledge these guys have of what a 155 behaves like, accrued over years was unreal. My mate took the sacrificial first shot based on the best estimate and he had 26MOA of wind on which got him an inner 4. We ended up shooting on between 22MOA and 28MOA and making the 6MOA swings between the two between shots. Looking through the spotting scope and seeing the trails arcing into the targets that far to the left and peeling back into the middle of the targets is one of my best shooting memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 The Americans, much like the majority of people on here, are always waiting for the next latest and greatest cartridge to come along ad save them US High Power competition allows them to use any cartridge they choose, and when forced to shoot something that conforms to the match regulations, they get shown up. The GB shooters have a wealth of knowledge built up around that cartridge, that's what helps them win. Well that and regular not dissimilar competition That doesn't apply to the US Palma competitors who are mainly Fullbore Rifle / Palma specialists just like our TR shooters. US domestic competitions allow handloaded ammo and any bullet weight, but the people likely to be chosen for the international teams often stick to the 'team bullet and load' (155gn 'new' #2156 Sierra MK, Palma brass and VarGet loaded to somewhere just above 3,000 fps). They even use the same (slightly 'tight') barrel bore / groove dimensions as our people, although AFAIK there is no history of milspec 7.62 ammo with undersize bullets that led the British Commonwealth shooters and gunsmiths down this path. Even where 'local rules' allow any bullet weight, few if any go above 175gn as they say that the heavier recoil of the 185gn Juggernaut in an unsupported (sling aside) rifle offsets the external ballistics gains. Their wind coaches tend to be one cartridge / one load specialists as much as our people and they put in a great deal of team(s) practice using 'Palma ammo' in the four years between each comp. Traditionally, the host nation provided ammunition for all participants which should give its team coaches a slight advantage. I believe that this still applies, although it'd only be for the actual Palma comps not the various championships' individual matches that precede them. The load details are made freely available to all and sundry and no doubt the visitors loaded ammo on site that matched what would be issued for the Palma matches and be 100% familiar with it. But on the matter of the great accumulated wealth of knowledge, that loading will be different enough from what we use at home (155gn 'old' SMK #2155) at a lower MV to require a degree of wind allowance adjustment. The quality of the top GB coaches is such that they have no difficulty doing this. For the last (2013) F-Class Worlds at Raton, all team members shot their own 155gn handloads in FTR, but there was enough difference between individual competitors' loads (2 different bullets and up to 100 fps MV variances between mildest and hottest loadings in use) that the coaches would vary windage allowances by a full quarter-MOA depending on which shooter they were coaching. Our (FTR) team wind coaches were Jane Messer the victorious Palma team's captain, and Paul Kent both borrowed from the TR/Palma world who were really amazingly good. Since then, the two GB F-Class teams have been developing their own coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John MH Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Do they anneal their cases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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